Coy
Graz never really quite answered the questions, did he?
Just because you have been unsuccessful with jigs and failures doesn’t mean that that only you have the last word on the topic. Hoping someone will innovate jigs for bass panels and new ways to install them, making in-home repairs possible, if still tricky.
Here we go with that coyness again. OK, Graz, then please just tell us that “true tale”.
Graz never really quite answered the questions, did he?
Just because you have been unsuccessful with jigs and failures doesn’t mean that that only you have the last word on the topic. Hoping someone will innovate jigs for bass panels and new ways to install them, making in-home repairs possible, if still tricky.
Here we go with that coyness again. OK, Graz, then please just tell us that “true tale”.
I asked the mod to move the posts.
I do take offense to this:
"Two kinds of people push for bass parts to attempt to repair Apogee's. The genuinely unaware - and those seeking to make a business of it. Both bad for the brand."
I would bet there are a few users from the old Apogee forum, and this one, who may be capable of doing a correct installation. So, no, I for one am not "genuinely unaware". I've seen the videos, read the procedure, etc.. I think I can do it. If not, too bad for me. Would I ask Graz for relief in a second batch of parts? No f'in way!
But...I do also agree with Graz: the process is intricate. Once you open a pair of Apogees, you just may find other issues that escalate a DIY rebuild. An old frame would be my biggest issue. I don't know if I'd want to invest money and time in replacing panels just to still have a cheap frame. I would probably want to build a new frame.
Better yet, I would just buy a different speaker that won't need maintenance!
I do take offense to this:
"Two kinds of people push for bass parts to attempt to repair Apogee's. The genuinely unaware - and those seeking to make a business of it. Both bad for the brand."
I would bet there are a few users from the old Apogee forum, and this one, who may be capable of doing a correct installation. So, no, I for one am not "genuinely unaware". I've seen the videos, read the procedure, etc.. I think I can do it. If not, too bad for me. Would I ask Graz for relief in a second batch of parts? No f'in way!
But...I do also agree with Graz: the process is intricate. Once you open a pair of Apogees, you just may find other issues that escalate a DIY rebuild. An old frame would be my biggest issue. I don't know if I'd want to invest money and time in replacing panels just to still have a cheap frame. I would probably want to build a new frame.
Better yet, I would just buy a different speaker that won't need maintenance!
I do not understand how this all gets so tribal - so hostile.
Tonight, I was reading back on old emails looking for a particular one regarding my T-IVa maggies, and found an email from one of the biggest jerks I ever encountered.
I had found a pair of 1 Ohm Scinnies in Texas and shipped them up to Chicago. They also had "the buzz" and was preparing to complete the silicone fix, when my worst fear happened, my multimeter sitting on top of a table fell and ruptured the bass panel. So pissed...so angry!!
Anyway, I enquired about replacement panels to the Graz installers and realized replacement bass panels were not a DIY option. I looked into refurb cost, but shipping was killer both ways for me...nothing was close to Chicago. I then found Patrick in Germany and ordered his replacement Scinnie bass panels, as it was the only option I had. The package arrived and sat on my desk for a couple months. We had a fire at work (I work in an oil refinery) and we had to rebuild an entire processing unit, that took me out of commission for another 7 months (14 - 16 hour days, and only 7 days off in those 7 months...not fun). After all that I was flush with cash (I actually had no time to spend) and ready to start this project, but came across a local pair of Maggie MG20.1, and again, project was on hold. I pretty much had forgotten about the Scinnies in the backroom....
Anyway, after a couple years went by, I decided to put the whole shebang - Scinnie project up for sale, including the replacement panels (unopened and still in box). Here is where the biggest ahole named Glen contacted me about the sale as he indicated he was looking for a pair of 1 ohm Scinnies to refurb at a Graz installer...he threw out a ridiculous offer including shipping that would not even cover shipping from Chicago to Texas. And he had to have Patrick's replacement panels so he could "throw them away", I asked him if sale could proceed without Patrick's panels and he said no, they "must be thrown away".
It then occurred he most likely was not interested in the Scinnies, but just had to teach me a lesson, he had to put me straight about my purchase decision.
I have no qualms with Graz as I have discussed replacement tweeters for these and other Apogees in the past (a nice guy). He is protective of his livelihood like all of us are, and that is commendable.
But the vitriol over all this is quite disturbing, and really brings out the worst in some people....
Tonight, I was reading back on old emails looking for a particular one regarding my T-IVa maggies, and found an email from one of the biggest jerks I ever encountered.
I had found a pair of 1 Ohm Scinnies in Texas and shipped them up to Chicago. They also had "the buzz" and was preparing to complete the silicone fix, when my worst fear happened, my multimeter sitting on top of a table fell and ruptured the bass panel. So pissed...so angry!!
Anyway, I enquired about replacement panels to the Graz installers and realized replacement bass panels were not a DIY option. I looked into refurb cost, but shipping was killer both ways for me...nothing was close to Chicago. I then found Patrick in Germany and ordered his replacement Scinnie bass panels, as it was the only option I had. The package arrived and sat on my desk for a couple months. We had a fire at work (I work in an oil refinery) and we had to rebuild an entire processing unit, that took me out of commission for another 7 months (14 - 16 hour days, and only 7 days off in those 7 months...not fun). After all that I was flush with cash (I actually had no time to spend) and ready to start this project, but came across a local pair of Maggie MG20.1, and again, project was on hold. I pretty much had forgotten about the Scinnies in the backroom....
Anyway, after a couple years went by, I decided to put the whole shebang - Scinnie project up for sale, including the replacement panels (unopened and still in box). Here is where the biggest ahole named Glen contacted me about the sale as he indicated he was looking for a pair of 1 ohm Scinnies to refurb at a Graz installer...he threw out a ridiculous offer including shipping that would not even cover shipping from Chicago to Texas. And he had to have Patrick's replacement panels so he could "throw them away", I asked him if sale could proceed without Patrick's panels and he said no, they "must be thrown away".
It then occurred he most likely was not interested in the Scinnies, but just had to teach me a lesson, he had to put me straight about my purchase decision.
I have no qualms with Graz as I have discussed replacement tweeters for these and other Apogees in the past (a nice guy). He is protective of his livelihood like all of us are, and that is commendable.
But the vitriol over all this is quite disturbing, and really brings out the worst in some people....
You might consider the irony.....and that your anecdote regarding "Glen" is a perfect example of why this topic/situation has become tribal, hostile and full of vitriol.
If you were in Patrick's shoes and heard about something like this, how would you feel???
It's an interesting story and one I hadn't heard before.
Dave.
If you were in Patrick's shoes and heard about something like this, how would you feel???
It's an interesting story and one I hadn't heard before.
Dave.
"Glen", right! I'd love to know more and see who this Glen character is. I'd bet it was someone asked to do this so Patrick's product would not be used and, perhaps, even used well.
Scintillas, even the 1+4 version, can fetch $1000 and require a rebuild. This buyer was an ahole if he offered a couple hundred (from the looks of it).
If you do decide to replace the panels yourself, try Florian at Clarisys Audio for parts:
Clarisys Audio Switzerland
I believe his quality is much better than Patrick's and he probably knows more about Apogees.
Scintillas, even the 1+4 version, can fetch $1000 and require a rebuild. This buyer was an ahole if he offered a couple hundred (from the looks of it).
If you do decide to replace the panels yourself, try Florian at Clarisys Audio for parts:
Clarisys Audio Switzerland
I believe his quality is much better than Patrick's and he probably knows more about Apogees.
Direct from the Ahole:
As a long-time member of the Apogee forum, and owner of several different Apogees, I have noticed your interest and probable purchase of several of the larger Apogees - FRs and Grand series .... Congrats if you succeeded and still own them! Apogees are the best!
Re your Scintilla message below, I am unsure what your intention/offer is - and what the tons of money was spent on. Some details would be appreciated - both for that and your asking price, please. Thanks.
Regarding the bass panels - there are no equals to genuine Apogee Acoustics (Graz's) parts anywhere or from anyone. The German operation was pirated and the installer involved has apologized to Apogee Acoustics and Graeme, left that partnership and ceased working against Apogee Acoustics' interests and quality controls - leaving a problem behind:
Neither I nor any knowledgeable owner of refurbished Apogees using genuine Apogee Acoustics parts will be interested in the German panels, as there will never be any follow-up and support from the failed partnership: Also, interestingly enough, they are more expensive than the genuine Apogee Acoustic (Graz or Graeme Keete) parts - so it is a lose lose situation all around - and a very serious and permanent problem for re-sale and value.
I am indeed intent to locate a pair of Scintillas as my final reference speaker to keep along with my Ultimate DSig by Rich Murry, but not at the cost of losing the customer support and QC that has kept our beloved speaker alive and singing well into their third decade. I also would repaint to my specs so that is not a plus.
Let me know what you are asking for them, and as a kindness and pricing reference, here is a gloriously documented and fully restored pair that I missed getting from a fellow forum member - they sold for 8K:
Apogee Acoustics Scintilla loudspeakers! *PRICE REDUCED! For Sale - US Audio M
I am still interested enough to hear your asking price John, and if it is a little high IMHO I might consider a partial trade for my Kronzilla amps - which are exquisite with Apogees:
REDUCED! KR Kronzilla DX MkII 100 wpc SET amps w/Pelican cases REDUCED! For Sa
I hope that you do respond a with your details and price, as I'd love to make a deal with you and save you from installing those bass panels, John. I fear that they will cost you value and wasted effort both - and will be un-sellable on the Forum, for sure.
Thank you for the tantilizing email: I look forward to your reply. BTW do your Scintillas have boxes/crates? And where in the US are you located, please? (I am used to shipping Apogees here to Texas).
Regards
Glen
As a long-time member of the Apogee forum, and owner of several different Apogees, I have noticed your interest and probable purchase of several of the larger Apogees - FRs and Grand series .... Congrats if you succeeded and still own them! Apogees are the best!
Re your Scintilla message below, I am unsure what your intention/offer is - and what the tons of money was spent on. Some details would be appreciated - both for that and your asking price, please. Thanks.
Regarding the bass panels - there are no equals to genuine Apogee Acoustics (Graz's) parts anywhere or from anyone. The German operation was pirated and the installer involved has apologized to Apogee Acoustics and Graeme, left that partnership and ceased working against Apogee Acoustics' interests and quality controls - leaving a problem behind:
Neither I nor any knowledgeable owner of refurbished Apogees using genuine Apogee Acoustics parts will be interested in the German panels, as there will never be any follow-up and support from the failed partnership: Also, interestingly enough, they are more expensive than the genuine Apogee Acoustic (Graz or Graeme Keete) parts - so it is a lose lose situation all around - and a very serious and permanent problem for re-sale and value.
I am indeed intent to locate a pair of Scintillas as my final reference speaker to keep along with my Ultimate DSig by Rich Murry, but not at the cost of losing the customer support and QC that has kept our beloved speaker alive and singing well into their third decade. I also would repaint to my specs so that is not a plus.
Let me know what you are asking for them, and as a kindness and pricing reference, here is a gloriously documented and fully restored pair that I missed getting from a fellow forum member - they sold for 8K:
Apogee Acoustics Scintilla loudspeakers! *PRICE REDUCED! For Sale - US Audio M
I am still interested enough to hear your asking price John, and if it is a little high IMHO I might consider a partial trade for my Kronzilla amps - which are exquisite with Apogees:
REDUCED! KR Kronzilla DX MkII 100 wpc SET amps w/Pelican cases REDUCED! For Sa
I hope that you do respond a with your details and price, as I'd love to make a deal with you and save you from installing those bass panels, John. I fear that they will cost you value and wasted effort both - and will be un-sellable on the Forum, for sure.
Thank you for the tantilizing email: I look forward to your reply. BTW do your Scintillas have boxes/crates? And where in the US are you located, please? (I am used to shipping Apogees here to Texas).
Regards
Glen
Tracked him down:
Apogee Acoustics • View topic - Getting my Duetta Signature Grazified!!!
Username is Shibui in the Apogee forums.
Occupation in the old forum bio was: Hot Shot Driver/Yacht Captain.
Yep, that says it all...
Apogee Acoustics • View topic - Getting my Duetta Signature Grazified!!!
Username is Shibui in the Apogee forums.
Occupation in the old forum bio was: Hot Shot Driver/Yacht Captain.
Yep, that says it all...
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I know I might get flamed for this but I found this thread through Google and...I think that Glen guy might be right on Patrick (DIS) panels, making sure as few as possible actually get installed.
Honestly, I haven't seen a pair of DIS Apogees holding it out for longer than 3-5 years. Even mine done 3 years ago are already crinkling, the MRT and HRT are starting to somehow twist aswell and look way worse than my 28 years old original pair. Still I keep both pairs under fabric covers, absolutely no sunlight and so on.
Seen a few refurbished pairs with their parts and it was the same story, ribbon either sagged or crinkled like a wet piece of paper.
I will keep mine for what they are but for sure as hell I won't pay the price of used B&W 802D's just to get my 2-way Apogees re-ribboned. I find the installers's prices riddiculous, let alone trying to ship speakers this size.
As much as I'd love to support a 'local' European Apogee parts supplier, I just cannot recommend them but really hope they will sort out the longevity issue.
I've heard of another company called "Clarisys Audio" but have zero information on the quality and materials used, anyone? They look very promising, especially the waved design.
Honestly, I haven't seen a pair of DIS Apogees holding it out for longer than 3-5 years. Even mine done 3 years ago are already crinkling, the MRT and HRT are starting to somehow twist aswell and look way worse than my 28 years old original pair. Still I keep both pairs under fabric covers, absolutely no sunlight and so on.
Seen a few refurbished pairs with their parts and it was the same story, ribbon either sagged or crinkled like a wet piece of paper.
I will keep mine for what they are but for sure as hell I won't pay the price of used B&W 802D's just to get my 2-way Apogees re-ribboned. I find the installers's prices riddiculous, let alone trying to ship speakers this size.
As much as I'd love to support a 'local' European Apogee parts supplier, I just cannot recommend them but really hope they will sort out the longevity issue.
I've heard of another company called "Clarisys Audio" but have zero information on the quality and materials used, anyone? They look very promising, especially the waved design.
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Graz and Apogee
Truth: You may be Apogee in name but you are not the Apogee that used to exist. They wanted to sell as many speakers as possible at a reasonable price. The Diva cost $7500.00 in 1988, the price in 2020 with inflation should be approx $17000.00 in 2021 dollars $7,500 in 1988 → 2021 | Inflation Calculator
Your newest Diva is >100K , mind you with all the new Audiophile buzzwords like neodymium ,aluminum, proprietary, bespoke, yada yada.....
Sounds great, like a super high end product but I wont be in the lineup to get a pair. I'll take an older pair of Divas, rebuild them and get 90% of the performance and enjoy the DIY experience.
I would like to add some information to this thread because I feel that there is a lot of incorrect information so here goes.
I have visited Graz's home and workshop on several occasions and he is always great to go and visit. If any of you think that he is making a fortune from what he does, all I can say is that he hides his wealth well. He lives in a modest cottage in the Sunshine Coast hinterland some 60 miles North of Brisbane in Queensland. He has a small workshop by any company standards and a listening room and speaker testing facility.
He has explained on numerous occasions his reasoning for no longer supplying bass ribbons, you Americans seem to be oblivious to the fact that at midday in the US it is anywhere from 9pm to 3am in Australia. No one likes getting phone calls at that time of night. Plus when it goes wrong he feels in some way responsible so was inclined to assist in any way he could.
He set up and trained installers on both sides of the US, the UK and throughout Europe. He invested a lot of time and money into the project to assist original Apogee owners to maintain their incredible speakers. For his trouble he gets castigated on these forums for no longer supplying the bass ribbons for DIY projects, the cost of transport to get to an installer gets a rattle but I am unsure how Graz can influence that.
For his part Graz can supply a crate design to protect the speakers during shipping, I know because he sent it to me to build crates for my Divas to enable them to be transported to him. It cost about $400AUD for materials and about a day to make them and they arrived safe and sound, which is a bonus when considering Australian freight companies.
Initially I was skeptical about Graz's diagnosis of my speakers and the cost of repairs. I visited him and he was correct, the original Apogees, whilst they sounded absolutely amazing, had major structural and other problems. The complete bass structure was made of HDF which unfortunately breaks down over time and flexes. The magnets were not truly aligned in the bass panels and there were other issues with glues and other parts.
Eventually Graz and I came to an arrangement and I commissioned him to do what was necessary to build me a new pair of speakers, these he now calls the Diva A9 and I have the only pair in the world. How do they sound - absolutely fantastic, I have never heard better in 50 years in this hobby. Graz has improved every feature of the original speaker, his design philosophy, selection of materials and build quality is second to none.
So this brings me to my point of contention, and that is about cost:
In 1982 the Diva was $7.5k US so all things being equal it should now cost $17k US. Really?
For comparison I quote prices from another well known American speaker manufacturer:
In 1982 the Wilson Audio Modular Monitor (WAMM) was introduced to the HiFi world at the then insane price of $32k US, more than the Infinity IRS or Duntech Sovereign of the same era. The US HiFi press fawned all over Dave Wilson, they sang his praises and heaped accolades on his achievement and probably rightly so. I can't really comment because I have always preferred the Apogee sound.
Then recently the WAMM Master Chronosonic was released which according to the inflation geniuses should cost $75k US. Unfortunately the list price was, I believe $685k US and wait for it, for it to really sound it's best you should add a pair of subwoofers. Just another paltry what $60k US.
So Graz has made serious improvements to the Apogees, I don't know what mine weigh but I would suggest around 450 pounds each. Look at the price of the nearest competition - Alsyvox Botticelli $90k US with an additional $40k US for the external crossover, more than the Diva A9 and the new Diva E9 is available for less.
Are they expensive? Bloody oath they are!!! Are they good? Bloody oath they are!!! Are they as good as the WAMM for 1/6th the price, well I guess that I will never really know unless I get to drool over a pair at a Hi Fi show because I sure as hell can never own a pair.
True Sound Works can upgrade your Divas to the ultimate for $22k US including shipping crates. You have Graz to thank for this.
Is Graz protecting his installers, probably, I don't really know, but what I do know is that they are still in business all around the Western World. Is Apogee, who only wanted to make their speakers for everyone (apparently) still in business?? Ah no. Why is that? Maybe they always needed to increase their prices but didn't. Maybe they took the court case with Magnepan too lightly. Who knows. I don't see too much animosity against Magnepan for their part in destroying Apogee. (Any thoughts???).
So if you are truly do it yourself, get a roll of aluminum foil and cut out the bass panels yourself. A true ribbon bass!!!
Truth: You may be Apogee in name but you are not the Apogee that used to exist. They wanted to sell as many speakers as possible at a reasonable price. The Diva cost $7500.00 in 1988, the price in 2020 with inflation should be approx $17000.00 in 2021 dollars $7,500 in 1988 → 2021 | Inflation Calculator
Your newest Diva is >100K , mind you with all the new Audiophile buzzwords like neodymium ,aluminum, proprietary, bespoke, yada yada.....
Sounds great, like a super high end product but I wont be in the lineup to get a pair. I'll take an older pair of Divas, rebuild them and get 90% of the performance and enjoy the DIY experience.
I would like to add some information to this thread because I feel that there is a lot of incorrect information so here goes.
I have visited Graz's home and workshop on several occasions and he is always great to go and visit. If any of you think that he is making a fortune from what he does, all I can say is that he hides his wealth well. He lives in a modest cottage in the Sunshine Coast hinterland some 60 miles North of Brisbane in Queensland. He has a small workshop by any company standards and a listening room and speaker testing facility.
He has explained on numerous occasions his reasoning for no longer supplying bass ribbons, you Americans seem to be oblivious to the fact that at midday in the US it is anywhere from 9pm to 3am in Australia. No one likes getting phone calls at that time of night. Plus when it goes wrong he feels in some way responsible so was inclined to assist in any way he could.
He set up and trained installers on both sides of the US, the UK and throughout Europe. He invested a lot of time and money into the project to assist original Apogee owners to maintain their incredible speakers. For his trouble he gets castigated on these forums for no longer supplying the bass ribbons for DIY projects, the cost of transport to get to an installer gets a rattle but I am unsure how Graz can influence that.
For his part Graz can supply a crate design to protect the speakers during shipping, I know because he sent it to me to build crates for my Divas to enable them to be transported to him. It cost about $400AUD for materials and about a day to make them and they arrived safe and sound, which is a bonus when considering Australian freight companies.
Initially I was skeptical about Graz's diagnosis of my speakers and the cost of repairs. I visited him and he was correct, the original Apogees, whilst they sounded absolutely amazing, had major structural and other problems. The complete bass structure was made of HDF which unfortunately breaks down over time and flexes. The magnets were not truly aligned in the bass panels and there were other issues with glues and other parts.
Eventually Graz and I came to an arrangement and I commissioned him to do what was necessary to build me a new pair of speakers, these he now calls the Diva A9 and I have the only pair in the world. How do they sound - absolutely fantastic, I have never heard better in 50 years in this hobby. Graz has improved every feature of the original speaker, his design philosophy, selection of materials and build quality is second to none.
So this brings me to my point of contention, and that is about cost:
In 1982 the Diva was $7.5k US so all things being equal it should now cost $17k US. Really?
For comparison I quote prices from another well known American speaker manufacturer:
In 1982 the Wilson Audio Modular Monitor (WAMM) was introduced to the HiFi world at the then insane price of $32k US, more than the Infinity IRS or Duntech Sovereign of the same era. The US HiFi press fawned all over Dave Wilson, they sang his praises and heaped accolades on his achievement and probably rightly so. I can't really comment because I have always preferred the Apogee sound.
Then recently the WAMM Master Chronosonic was released which according to the inflation geniuses should cost $75k US. Unfortunately the list price was, I believe $685k US and wait for it, for it to really sound it's best you should add a pair of subwoofers. Just another paltry what $60k US.
So Graz has made serious improvements to the Apogees, I don't know what mine weigh but I would suggest around 450 pounds each. Look at the price of the nearest competition - Alsyvox Botticelli $90k US with an additional $40k US for the external crossover, more than the Diva A9 and the new Diva E9 is available for less.
Are they expensive? Bloody oath they are!!! Are they good? Bloody oath they are!!! Are they as good as the WAMM for 1/6th the price, well I guess that I will never really know unless I get to drool over a pair at a Hi Fi show because I sure as hell can never own a pair.
True Sound Works can upgrade your Divas to the ultimate for $22k US including shipping crates. You have Graz to thank for this.
Is Graz protecting his installers, probably, I don't really know, but what I do know is that they are still in business all around the Western World. Is Apogee, who only wanted to make their speakers for everyone (apparently) still in business?? Ah no. Why is that? Maybe they always needed to increase their prices but didn't. Maybe they took the court case with Magnepan too lightly. Who knows. I don't see too much animosity against Magnepan for their part in destroying Apogee. (Any thoughts???).
So if you are truly do it yourself, get a roll of aluminum foil and cut out the bass panels yourself. A true ribbon bass!!!
Regardless of price points and inflation.....back in the day the cost of Apogee's was not out of reach for the average audiophile. Sadly, that is not the case nowadays. And even refurbishing old models is still quite expensive.
I'm glad to see there are now alternatives to Graz' services. But this many years removed the market is so small now because most of the speakers just don't exist anymore. They've long been lost to the landfill, or forgotten in a storage facility, or dusty basement, or wherever.
Dave.
I'm glad to see there are now alternatives to Graz' services. But this many years removed the market is so small now because most of the speakers just don't exist anymore. They've long been lost to the landfill, or forgotten in a storage facility, or dusty basement, or wherever.
Dave.
My 30 year old Divas are still going strong with no buzz. I did just replace a midrange ribbon with an Apogee original I purchased while Apogee was still in business. I knew this day would come because the original ribbon was installed at the factory with too little tension so it sagged.
My Duetta Signatures are also doing well but they have Graz tweeter ribbons and the external foam fix to prevent bass ribbon buzz. That fix was applied over 15 years ago.
My Duetta Signatures are also doing well but they have Graz tweeter ribbons and the external foam fix to prevent bass ribbon buzz. That fix was applied over 15 years ago.
There may be more than you think out there. I am pretty familiar with the original Quad ESL's which are now between 37 and 64 years old, and there are still a shocking amount of them floating around.
Sheldon
Interesting Read herein. All I can say is that Graz's panels and service was Great. I Took THE plunge and packaged My signatures and sent to His Guy in UK from Sweden. They came back in top condition with new treble and base/ mid panels. Crossover removed and all magnets realigned. 11 Years later panels still look and sound Great..No Buzz and much better bass. THE Cost was low compared to new speakers of same quality.