Why aren't ESLs dynamic?

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If "Dynamics" is slam, then some speakers have it, some don't. Most PA systems do, clock radios do not. ;) Most Open Baffle speakers I've heard do not have slam - with some notable exceptions.

For me that slam is a playback artifact. It's an artifact of large, efficient woofers driven by big amplifiers. It's not a sound of musical instruments unless you are standing right next to a bass drum, or maybe lying under a grand piano. Slam comes from a chain of mic>EQ>powerful amp>big woofers>box.

It's fun for sure. And many people who's prime experience with live music is standing in front of a kilowatt PA think it's a natural part of the music. It's mostly an electronic effect. A cool one, to be sure. :up:
 
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Probably 20 to 40hz
most likely. On another note, the original production of The Wall was discontinued and replaced with a toned down version because of complaints by people blowing up their speakers. I discovered this when I exchanged my well worn original for a second gen version from a used record store, bottom end is gone.


OTOH, I'm just looking for a good frying pan. Anyone know where I can find one?
 
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I don't know, honestly. Does it? How?

Jan
It seems to me by what I've gathered that it has to do with excursion. The impact of a kick drum has as much to do with volume as it does with the movement of the drum skin. Have you ever watched one being kicked? I think if you want to be hit in the chest by the recorded sound of a snare drum it would need to be played back on at least a 12" driver. So the spl a driver produces needs to match the volume of air it simultaneously moves, required to produce a naturally transparent facsimile.
 
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I was once called to sound proof a client's basement music room. When I showed up, I saw 2 full drum kits in a 15X25X8 room. So I told the lady I have to hear a demonstration before I can assess the circumstances. She called her husband who came home, sat down, and proceeded to what sounded/felt to me like he was shaking the house down. To which I responded "I can't help you, sorry", not unless we decrease the size of the room by 30%. Very expensive
 
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Ha ha. Most of us do. :up:

I suspect that the dynamics you seek come from moving a lot of air. ESL speakers have a lot of surface area, but not much displacement. The open back doesn't help much either.
How much air can do 15" woofers or an 18" per side move?
 
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Ha ha. Most of us do. :up:

I suspect that the dynamics you seek come from moving a lot of air. ESL speakers have a lot of surface area, but not much displacement. The open back doesn't help much either.
How much air can do 15" woofers or an 18" per side move?
I don't know but I have a pair of JBL 2269 I'm about to build a pair of Sub18 to find out. I also have several pairs of DD servo OTLs. I have the panels to build a pair of 6s. I think that will do the trick.:)
 
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It seems to me by what I've gathered that it has to do with excursion. The impact of a kick drum has as much to do with volume as it does with the movement of the drum skin. Have you ever watched one being kicked? I think if you want to be hit in the chest by the recorded sound of a snare drum it would need to be played back on at least a 12" driver. So the spl a driver produces needs to match the volume of air it simultaneously moves, required to produce a naturally transparent facsimile.

Pete, I think we are miscommunication. Slam, impact, feeling your guts move, that all has indeed to do with how much air you can move.
Dynamics have to do with the difference between the softest and loudest sound you can reproduce. It is a ratio, normally expressed in dB.

Example is a car sound system. Many car systems can play extremely loud, moving your guts and sometimes the doors as well! But because of the high ambient sound in a car, dynamic range often is not even 40dB.
In a quiet living room, with a 30dB background noise level, a 110dB speaker provides an 80dB dynamic range.
But that's not what you were talking about, so I will bow out, ok?

Jan
 
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Oh, I think I get it now, dynamic range is a technical term whereas the others are simply descriptors for the sake of communication. The confusion stems from both being references to the physical capabilities of the driver. Strange there is no technical term for impactfulness.


I totallyfully understand:)
 
I've been on a quest of improving the mid-bass impact of my hybrid ESL setup for the past 20 years, and am pretty close to an acceptable result.

First, I'll trot out my DIY ESL center channel, the SL3XC, as an example of an extremely dynamic speaker. It has a coherent wave-launch and far-field coverage thanks to symmetrical line-arrays for ESL and mid-bass.

The mid-bass array (operates from 60 to 350Hz) is clean and has tons of dynamic 'punch' (i.e. high-output in its range with low-distortion).

One of the challenges of hybrid ESL designs is achieving two things:
- Coherent far-field balance at and below the crossover point
- Consistent power-curve (same freq. profile at low vs high output levels)

Mitigating those usually requires using a line-array of mid-bass / bass drivers and appropriate DSP crossover and amplification.

In spite of the amazing performance levels of my customized (active crossover + bi-amped, new woofer) MartinLogan Monoliths, the SL3XC is a much more dynamic speaker.

So to the OP, achieving that in a pure ESL is a huge implementation challenge as others have mentioned, but implementing a 'good' hybrid is possible.

attachment.php
 
Mid Bass Modules (MBM) option

Further to the discussion about impactfulness, I discovered that often refers to the lower end of what is usually termed the mid-bass, from usually from 45Hz into the 180hz range.

With the weak mid-bass of hybrid ESLs plus a room mode challenge, I found I needed to deploy two near-field mid-bass modules in my system to get the true tactile feel. And boy, do those things really work.

For those of you not wanting to mess with re-engineering your ESLs, this might be a lower-cost means of achieving the goal.
But note: while the driver and box part is dirt-simple, dialing in the appropriate delay to synchronize with the mains and the subs is an hour-long chore. The Group Delay metric in REW is your friend here.

With these, any kind of music and all action movies are a blast!

I did a 1,000-word write-up on them here with a bunch more pics and measurements:
MBM Deployment

I've since re-balanced them and adjusted gains so there is no large hump. But it was fun while it was there.

attachment.php
 
What is the definition of Dynamics in loudspeakers?

I usually hear the term Dynamic Slam. Described with hit you in the chest and or visceral impact.

To add more controversy I also believe Dynamics can relate to the mid to high frequencies as well as dynamics should encompass the whole frequency spectrum. The term dynamic Slam is being more specific and only pertaining to the lower frequencies.

I believe electrostatics, planars, ribbons etc. have good dynamics in the mid to high frequencies but lack low end dynamics due to less pistonic excursions. This is the reason "HYBRIDS" are made.

DML panels are dynamic in the higher frequencies but lack the lower end dynamics due to little pistonic excursion. When a conventional cone sub is added the lower end dynamics come into play. Combining conventional cone drivers with Planars will result in the best of both worlds.
 
Distributed Mode Loudspeaker vs Vibration Panel Technology

I'm doing my best to educate myself on distributed mode loudspeakers, with the goal of building hidden, hifi quality speakers in my house, either in the form of the wall itself, or as artwork panels suspended from the ceiling or mounted on the wall.

I'm new to DIY, so forgive me for my naivitae. I originally came across DML with Tech Ingredients review of DML panel options in this informative Youtube video.

It seems these speaker work best when the panel is suspended in air and not affixed to anything. There are also expensive "invisible speakers" out there sold that are built into the drywall and use the wall as the loudspeaker. These are sometimes called "Vibration Panel Technology," I believe is the same thing, but I am not sure.

What I am unclear about is how these speaker perform well when connected to the entire wall and not suspended?

If you know of projects in which people have built DML or other speakers that either use the wall as the speaker or can be affixed to the wall or suspended like artwork, I would appreciate seeing those projects.
 
From my personal experience, with two esl57 it left something to be desired but with 4 quands 57 stacked, I can assure you that the dynamics are there, even though mine are almost 50 years old. I listened to other electrostats and the only ones that showed much more dynamics are the acoustat monitor 4.
 
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