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Old 22nd November 2019, 01:09 PM   #1
JonasKarud is offline JonasKarud  Sweden
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Default Wiring a Planar

I had some magnets left from earlier projects, so I made this contraption for fun.
Its a bass driver with nine rows with 19 magnets in each row. The magnets size is 4x10x40mm, and a 12Um Mylar sheet stretched 4 mm over the magnets.

The perforated metal is a shelf from IKEA called "Bottna".

Today, it has four loops of 0.32 (28 gauge) copper wire. Each loop has four turns in the magnet gap. The loops are connected in series, giving a total of 5 Ohms and sensitivity around 85 dB/2,83 volt

The wires are taped to the Mylar using Kapton tape for easy replacement. (works surprisingly well, with very low distortion)

The big question: How to make the most Spl efficient wiring? Maybe using thinner wire in parallel?

Any suggestions?

Regards/ Jonas
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:23 PM   #2
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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I like the simple and easily changeable construction. Great for experimenting!

IF you maintain 5 ohms then Thinner wire will lower sensitivity, yes even in parallel.

Assuming present configuration...

26 gauge copper will give you about 3 ohms and about 1.5- 2 db more

add another run of 26 ( 5 per ) and get about 3.8 ohms but only about 1 db more

Better If the magnets were closer together, about 1/4 inch apart would be good. Then field strength would be higher AND better aligned with wires field. If magnets closer together, and wire sized optimized, and assuming same size diaphragm, you should be able to get about 5 db, maybe a bit more

BTW if you stay with the magnets spread out like that you may not have good damping of both bass and lower mids. Its very "open". most planer designs have around a 10-15% open area through the magnet structure. Yours looks to be around 50% open area. This resistance to air movement is used to damp resonances. The kapton /wire/mylar sandwich might be giving needed damping but not likley. You may need to close up the construction a bit to quiet the ringing. This "ringing is heard as a boomy uncontrolled bass and a thick and resonant midrange.

You can easily experiment with this "damping" by simply attaching strips of any tape to the backside of magnet structure to close up the open areas. Try at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 closed and listen. Be sure to rub tape down good to the perforated steel so that the tape doesnt move. I like to use the "painters tape". It sticks good enough BUT comes back off easily

Last edited by lowmass; 22nd November 2019 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 05:11 PM   #3
JonasKarud is offline JonasKarud  Sweden
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Thank You, lowmax!

You are absolutely correct on the ringing phenomena, I can hear it in the mids.

I will try 6 mm between the magnets, and then I will also have space for a true ribbon tweeter on the same "Bottna".

Thanks again!
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Old 22nd November 2019, 06:01 PM   #4
RogerGustavsson is offline RogerGustavsson  Sweden
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If you look at Magnepan, the gap between magnets is small, about 2 mm. Magnepan uses weak magnets, plastic bounded ferrite. My old Magnepan tweeters, push-pull, have very little open area, about 11%. That causes some resonances and trapped high frequencies inside the driver. Did you not measure the B&G Neo 8 single sided?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 06:21 PM   #5
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasKarud View Post
Thank You, lowmax!

You are absolutely correct on the ringing phenomena, I can hear it in the mids.

I will try 6 mm between the magnets, and then I will also have space for a true ribbon tweeter on the same "Bottna".

Thanks again!
Yep a ribbon crossed around 400 hz will really make ya smile. Might be able to goto 1Khz BUT usually the vocals will suffer, although dynamics may seem better

Your magnets are a bit wide for really good mid and up operation. The width of those magnets limits them to good sound below 1 Khz so yes just tack on a ribbon and it can be quite good.

Also I would add a bit of baffle to the bass panel. I know, I dont like wide speakers eather BUT the improvement in bass is quite large

Last edited by lowmass; 22nd November 2019 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:10 PM   #6
JonasKarud is offline JonasKarud  Sweden
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"Did you not measure the B&G Neo 8 single sided?" Yes, and it was much better singel sided.

My future goal is to try to mimic the sound of these speakers: YouTube.

I'm not saying that I'll be able to, but I'll give a try...Each speaker has over 50 kilograms of ferrite magnets....
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Old 23rd November 2019, 04:44 PM   #7
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Is this a push pull....of just a pull ribbon speaker on youtube….nice price you bet.
Thanks for posting you work jonaskarud...looks great like your other ribbons...have fun
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Old 23rd November 2019, 05:03 PM   #8
RogerGustavsson is offline RogerGustavsson  Sweden
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It is push pull planar for the lower frequencies and ribbons for mid/tweeter. Price is very high. Just read they use neodymium magnets.

https://alsyvox.com/wp-content/uploa...roposition.pdf

Last edited by RogerGustavsson; 23rd November 2019 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:06 PM   #9
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasKarud View Post
I had some magnets left from earlier projects, so I made this contraption for fun.
Its a bass driver with nine rows with 19 magnets in each row. The magnets size is 4x10x40mm, and a 12Um Mylar sheet stretched 4 mm over the magnets.

The perforated metal is a shelf from IKEA called "Bottna".

Today, it has four loops of 0.32 (28 gauge) copper wire. Each loop has four turns in the magnet gap. The loops are connected in series, giving a total of 5 Ohms and sensitivity around 85 dB/2,83 volt

The wires are taped to the Mylar using Kapton tape for easy replacement. (works surprisingly well, with very low distortion)

The big question: How to make the most Spl efficient wiring? Maybe using thinner wire in parallel?

Any suggestions?

Regards/ Jonas
if you want efficiency for bass use only, go thick alu wire(i still want to make one with almost pure wire vs open area on the mylar... as many other design ofcourse limited time). and use many turns. doubling the turns in the gap gives you +3dB, if you keep impedance the same that is. so twice the turns? you need thicker wire to achieve the same impedance.
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:07 PM   #10
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerGustavsson View Post
It is push pull planar for the lower frequencies and ribbons for mid/tweeter. Price is very high. Just read they use neodymium magnets.

https://alsyvox.com/wp-content/uploa...roposition.pdf
i got my doubts about that design to be honest. the thickness of the panels is a big as the prommised excusion an i bet it is not a real ribbon but a planar magnetic. and where do they hide all those thick neo's ? price is around 75000 for a medium pair i believe haha

still awesome looking, and the specs are really nice to (if correct). i must say. i would like to see a bit more from the inside since the prices are typical high end prices im always really sceptical
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