Thank you for your support with your reasonable point of view Moray.
Ben is just posting here in bad faith. He is obviously not interested in discussing the mechanics of snubbers, otherwise he would have followed my advice and brought his questions to the people who are most qualified to discuss and answer them. His mind was already made up before he first posted, and like you say, there is no way to win with a person like that.
I am not at all interested in arguing with closed-minded people, as I stated previously I am just trying to share my experiences and help others to improve their speakers. You are right, It's not up to me to prove or disprove anything, if someone wants experimental proof it is up to them to find it for themselves.
People are free to spend $40, try it out for themselves, and make their own decisions. I'm not selling anything or looking to profit, I am simply trying to give back to the forum in the same spirit that I have received so much from so many others.
To get back to the original intent of this thread, I have found in general that oscillations unrelated to the audio signal are bad for sound quality. It is therefore not inconceivable that the oscillator composed of the power transformer inductance and the circuit capacitance, triggered by the rectifier turn-off spikes would cause similar degradation. I did a test of this with my speakers, found positive results, and in the interest of learning posted here so that others might repeat my experiment to see if their experiences were similar to mine or not.
I did some more parts searching and found an alternative capacitor for Cs:
https://www.newark.com/kemet/f464rd224j2k5zlh0j/cap-0-22-f-2-5-kv-5-pp-radial/dp/43AC9246
This part is bit larger at 0.22uF, which is closer to the best practice recommendations for the Cx/Cs capacitor ratio and has a higher rated voltage (1000VAC). It's also less than 1/2 the price of the other capacitor.
Here is a possible resistor for Rs:
https://www.newark.com/ohmite/40f4k7e/res-4k7-10w-axial-wirewound/dp/64K8538
This one is rated at 11 watts:
90J4K7E Ohmite | Mouser
Although most resistors 10 watt or higher with a 1KV rating should be fine as well.
I hope that the information in my first post and what I have added here is helpful.
Take care,
Doug
Hey Doug!
Thanks so much for posting this snubber information for the Acoustat MK 121 type interface! ...and especially your perceptions of its aural merits too!
I appreciate in particular the attached schematic as well, as it makes clear what your circuit configuration is, vis-à-vis your Cs & Cx values.
The issue of resistor voltage rating is real. But be careful of using a wirewound, as there will be series inductance (unless specially wound) that will shift the effective rf performance of the snubber.
Thanks so much for posting this snubber information for the Acoustat MK 121 type interface! ...and especially your perceptions of its aural merits too!
I appreciate in particular the attached schematic as well, as it makes clear what your circuit configuration is, vis-à-vis your Cs & Cx values.
The issue of resistor voltage rating is real. But be careful of using a wirewound, as there will be series inductance (unless specially wound) that will shift the effective rf performance of the snubber.
So, this being a bias supply is purely coincidental. It could just as well have been a transformer powering up your lava lamp, right?
What is interesting is that this transformer, unlike "normal" ps transformers works virtually unloaded. Perhaps this is the reason why a snubber has such a strong effect.
What is interesting is that this transformer, unlike "normal" ps transformers works virtually unloaded. Perhaps this is the reason why a snubber has such a strong effect.
As we know..... All ESL speakers well not work with out Bias,.....But its always look to me, in a lot of these simple type bias setups like these Kings of ESLs... like Acoustat,Quad…. its not payed a lot of attention to....as to sound quality....
I guess it the old way of thinking that it outside the Signal Path…..
I have found....ESL bias is the bigs part of the Signal Path.... an a lot more attention should be payed...
If any one doubt this....change the type bias feeder resistor before the panel...or caps in the bias setup.... that a lone well change the sound....
Thank you for your nice comments!
Yes, the inductance of a wirewound resistor will change the characteristics of the snubber to some degree and should be taken into account. Unfortunately it is difficult to find non-inductive resistors at this power rating. However, one of the advantages of using a Quasimodo type device for determining snubber component values is that you can use the actual resistor that you have on hand to determine if it is the correct value for your optimised snubber. In this case I found that the small inductance of the wirewound resistors that I used did not make a significant difference to the final result.
I certainly agree with you that, as with the snubber capacitors, the voltage rating of the resistor must be taken into account. The biggest challenge by far in sourcing parts for this project has been ensuring that the component voltage and power ratings are sufficient for safety and reliability.
I noticed that the Newark parts links that I posted earlier do not work correctly. If you go to their website and just search for the actual part numbers then you will be able to find them; 43AC9246 for the capacitor and 64K8538 for the resistor.
Take care,
Doug
I suppose that it could be, although I doubt that there would be much if any sonic benefit to snubberising a lava lamp power supply.
I don't know how much effect the very low loading of the power supply would serve to reduce dampening of transformer ringing, but it's possible that this may be significant. But at the same time, the relatively low current through the diode multiplier may also lessen the rectifier spikes to some degree, thereby reducing the ringing and counter acting any effects of the low level of transformer loading. In the final analysis, the fact that the snubber is dissipating around three watts of power shows that it is removing a significant amount of excess energy from the circuit, so either way it appears to be working as intended.
Take care,
Doug
Ok, i have added your snubber to the Acoustat bias transfourmer in the MK121 interface...
What I hear is, less high frequency....Be it the cuting RF,ringing tranfourmers or what ever.....this has been my (one mans finding) of all zobels-snubber type steups.....
About 10 years a go i stop using any SS amps to drive any ESL...Why... SS amps (to my ears) ...driveing a setpup transfourmer give a unreal sound to ESLs ….high frequency!
Having previously eliminated some of all the MK121 interfaces transformers ringing by pulling the interfaces off the back of the panels frames....I did this 30 years a go with my first Acoustat Xs with the servo tube amps, an have aways done this with the MK121 interfaces….even when driving ESL with tube amps.....like i think all ESL should be...well for my ears,you see.
So using SS amps to drive ESL Stepup transfourmers well sound diff-some may say better.. with this sumbber….an thanks for posting it,with your findings
All just one mans finding.....Keep working...have fun with ESL sound...I think it my be as good as it gets....
What I hear is, less high frequency....Be it the cuting RF,ringing tranfourmers or what ever.....this has been my (one mans finding) of all zobels-snubber type steups.....
About 10 years a go i stop using any SS amps to drive any ESL...Why... SS amps (to my ears) ...driveing a setpup transfourmer give a unreal sound to ESLs ….high frequency!
Having previously eliminated some of all the MK121 interfaces transformers ringing by pulling the interfaces off the back of the panels frames....I did this 30 years a go with my first Acoustat Xs with the servo tube amps, an have aways done this with the MK121 interfaces….even when driving ESL with tube amps.....like i think all ESL should be...well for my ears,you see.
So using SS amps to drive ESL Stepup transfourmers well sound diff-some may say better.. with this sumbber….an thanks for posting it,with your findings
All just one mans finding.....Keep working...have fun with ESL sound...I think it my be as good as it gets....
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Well I was a bit skeptical about this "upgrade" , but I had to do some work on the interfaces (removing spiders) and I had the parts so gave it a go.
I wouldn't say it's a dramatic improvement, but there is something there- the midrange seems purer , the background black is blacker- its subtle , but yes its worthwhile.
I have my interfaces set up with split LF and HF transformers , and so bi-amping.
Also have 0.022uF/6000V cap on end of diode/cap string (dangerous!) which I found to have more effect than the snubber, but it all sounds damn good.
I wouldn't say it's a dramatic improvement, but there is something there- the midrange seems purer , the background black is blacker- its subtle , but yes its worthwhile.
I have my interfaces set up with split LF and HF transformers , and so bi-amping.
Also have 0.022uF/6000V cap on end of diode/cap string (dangerous!) which I found to have more effect than the snubber, but it all sounds damn good.
Sounds like the snubber mod did not exceed the degree of subjective improvement usually reported for DIY placebos. But the improvement does seem greater than reported for oxygen-free copper wiring.
Not saying there is no there there, but I patiently await seeing some measurements or any kind of single or double-blind subjective rating.
B.
Not saying there is no there there, but I patiently await seeing some measurements or any kind of single or double-blind subjective rating.
B.
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Listen, i was very skeptical, i think a lot of diy stuff is ********, and i understand your skepticism, but there is something in this, and ive put snubbers on other equipment that i thought did nothing at all.
I suppose you could measure what it does, but it would be beyond the capabilities of ordinary test gear.
I suppose you could measure what it does, but it would be beyond the capabilities of ordinary test gear.
Oh, if I had realized you were already one of the converted faithful, I would have set my placebo expectation even higher.
I have no reason to think you are any more susceptible to the DIY/placebo effect than I or anyone else (or less). As soon as I do a tweak of any sort and listen real carefully, I hear subtle nuances I never heard before.
Granted, there are audible effects that can't be measured with ordinary gear. But then don't you see the need for a blind test? Can't ask a buddy to randomly hook or unhook the snubber on a 5-minute or 5-day matrix?
Did you measure the bias voltage (AC and DC and eyeballed on a 'scope) before and after?
B.
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Geez your an obstinate type. Blind test? Ive been doing audio professionally for 30 years, and the hardest , and most useful thing ive learnt is to only hear whats real, not what you want to hear. I dont need a blind test to know whats real and what isnt. Granted, its not an easy skill to aquire, and i still have doubts sometimes. The point of this hobby is to enjoy, cant see how being so picky helps the enjoyment factor.
I spent quite a few hours yesterday very much enjoying the 2+2 , the finest stat ever made.and ive heard most of them. Those of you with 2+2's and an open mind should give this simple mod a shot.
I spent quite a few hours yesterday very much enjoying the 2+2 , the finest stat ever made.and ive heard most of them. Those of you with 2+2's and an open mind should give this simple mod a shot.
Thank you for your feedback supra, it sounds like you are noticing very similar differences with the snubber mod as we have here.
I find it interesting that you would bi-amp your interfaces. It would never have occurred to me to do that, but one advantage that I can see is that it may present an easier load for each amplifier to drive. Do you use any kind of crossover on the inputs of your amplifiers or run them both full-range?
Just ignore Ben, he is one of a small group of people on this forum who think that if something cannot be measured or picked out in an AB test then it cannot possibly exist. If you disagree with their point of view you will be denigrated such as what he just did to you above. Ben has contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion here and I find his manner to be insulting and disrespectful to those of us who have spent many years learning to critically listen to music and audio systems. But like a religious extremist he is absolutely convinced that he is right and we all are wrong, and nothing that anyone says or does will make him change his mind.
I am not at all interested in getting involved in the subjective vs objective debate, if he or anyone else would like to do that then I recommend this much more appropriate thread: John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
If Ben truly wants to investigate snubbers in electrostatic power supplies, he is free to perform experiments on his own electrostatic speakers instead of expecting everyone else to do his work for him.
Take care,
Doug
I find it interesting that you would bi-amp your interfaces. It would never have occurred to me to do that, but one advantage that I can see is that it may present an easier load for each amplifier to drive. Do you use any kind of crossover on the inputs of your amplifiers or run them both full-range?
Just ignore Ben, he is one of a small group of people on this forum who think that if something cannot be measured or picked out in an AB test then it cannot possibly exist. If you disagree with their point of view you will be denigrated such as what he just did to you above. Ben has contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion here and I find his manner to be insulting and disrespectful to those of us who have spent many years learning to critically listen to music and audio systems. But like a religious extremist he is absolutely convinced that he is right and we all are wrong, and nothing that anyone says or does will make him change his mind.
I am not at all interested in getting involved in the subjective vs objective debate, if he or anyone else would like to do that then I recommend this much more appropriate thread: John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
If Ben truly wants to investigate snubbers in electrostatic power supplies, he is free to perform experiments on his own electrostatic speakers instead of expecting everyone else to do his work for him.
Take care,
Doug
Doug
If you look at the 2+2 schematic you can see that its possible to split the HF and LF transformers - you need another set of amplifier connectors on interface, but easy enough to do . Crossovers stay the same , it's still blended at panels , but yes its an easier load and I dont think you can throw too much power at the 2+2 .
What I also do is use a "dual preamp" which has two line levels, one used for bass and one for mid/treble, although both full range. With seperate level controls I can adjust tone of 2+2, its a very fine adjustment to change tone quite a bit, although the "standard" setting is very close to ideal. The 0.022uF/6000V cap on end of HT bias is worthwhile too, but it turns interface into potentional death machine.
If you look at the 2+2 schematic you can see that its possible to split the HF and LF transformers - you need another set of amplifier connectors on interface, but easy enough to do . Crossovers stay the same , it's still blended at panels , but yes its an easier load and I dont think you can throw too much power at the 2+2 .
What I also do is use a "dual preamp" which has two line levels, one used for bass and one for mid/treble, although both full range. With seperate level controls I can adjust tone of 2+2, its a very fine adjustment to change tone quite a bit, although the "standard" setting is very close to ideal. The 0.022uF/6000V cap on end of HT bias is worthwhile too, but it turns interface into potentional death machine.
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