Yea I dont know about Maggies attempt at their foil type planers vs their wire type in their mid/tweeters.
In my own experaments the foil type always won the ear test over the wire type once everything was taylored and crossed over well. No small task
It is interesting to me that my foil types were only better than the wire types when the foil trace was full sized, meaning a trace from magnet center to magnet center. A trace much wider than the wire that fills as much of diaphragm surface as possible. Then there was also taming the diaphragm resonances that needs attention. The wire types have a mechanical property that tends to do a bit better job at controlling standing waves than the flat foil type , so tuning of the diaphragm and applying "dots" in the right places become more critical with the flat foil type.
Bottom line the flat foil types had a quality that was not easily realized but had virtues the wire type does not once you get everything behaving well. Not an easy task. Also film mass/adhesive type and mass/ and foil mass ALL play a bigger role and are more work to get right than the much easier wire type. Sometimes in this biz its not so much the type as it is the execution.
As tyu says the tru ribbon like in the Apogee mid/tweeter is very easy to get to sound even better and is the design I too have always gotten to sound good with little trouble. As well its easy to make.
In my own experaments the foil type always won the ear test over the wire type once everything was taylored and crossed over well. No small task
It is interesting to me that my foil types were only better than the wire types when the foil trace was full sized, meaning a trace from magnet center to magnet center. A trace much wider than the wire that fills as much of diaphragm surface as possible. Then there was also taming the diaphragm resonances that needs attention. The wire types have a mechanical property that tends to do a bit better job at controlling standing waves than the flat foil type , so tuning of the diaphragm and applying "dots" in the right places become more critical with the flat foil type.
Bottom line the flat foil types had a quality that was not easily realized but had virtues the wire type does not once you get everything behaving well. Not an easy task. Also film mass/adhesive type and mass/ and foil mass ALL play a bigger role and are more work to get right than the much easier wire type. Sometimes in this biz its not so much the type as it is the execution.
As tyu says the tru ribbon like in the Apogee mid/tweeter is very easy to get to sound even better and is the design I too have always gotten to sound good with little trouble. As well its easy to make.
Lowmass.....you have put your hands an minds....hehe... on a lot of ribbon/panel ...speakers an other type of setups..... I for one thank you for your time an info....its always clear....I like reading you....like bolserst...you an others... guys give us great things to think about..we may never read..keep it comeing!
But for the frist timers.... matching tweeter/mids ribbons... to other drivers...can get tuff..for just a one off....but never to late...I gess that ezey for me to say....I set here with over 10 pr or more of working panel speakers....
good luck to all
But for the frist timers.... matching tweeter/mids ribbons... to other drivers...can get tuff..for just a one off....but never to late...I gess that ezey for me to say....I set here with over 10 pr or more of working panel speakers....
good luck to all
Thanks Tyu, and thanks to all those such as WrineX for all the documented experiments. Those can take the mystery out of construction
As for the matching thing, yes agree. I will say however as advised to Martin, past experience shows that 400-500hz seems to be the easiest place to cross and match. Not sure why this is exactly as its smack in the mid range which theory says not best place,but I suspect its related to the power region being just below this and the basic strengths /weaknesses of the driver types. Also perhaps related to practical baffle configurations. Theres good reason Apogee crosses around here in many of their 2 way designs. Best balance of all the strengths /weaknesses. BTW be aware that although the electrical x over may be around 400hz the actual acoustic x over is more like 700-1khz in Apogee designs. Big overlap of driver outputs
In the end I found this to be the easiest region to x over to get good sound, However to go from good to great will still take a lot of level, rake, and crossover point and slope experimentation .
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I take it you mean, no response? I wouldn't let that deter me. It literally took 4-5 calls to their phone line to finally get a response; Magnepan hasn't fully gotten on board with this thing called the "internet" so they do almost all their communication via phone.
Call their main number 1-800-474-1646 Monday to Friday from 8 AM to 4PM CT, or (651) 426-1645 if you're not in the US. Their VM system has an option to leave a message for repair or production groups; you might as well leave a message to the production manager; Gary is quite busy but he does answer all calls when he gets to them. He will be the one to give you an RMA and will coordinate repairs with the shop, so eventually you'll need to talk to him anyway.When I dropped my speakers off, they had just brought in a very badly degraded set of T-1D and restored them to factory new condition. I would expect that a tweeter replace/repair is not beyond their capabilities.
tel:651-426-1645
If by "older" you mean the Tympani 1B style, that's correct. Magnepan no longer refurbishes any of the 1, 1A, 1B series. However, they most certainly are still reworking the 1C and newer tweeters. I know mine are being disassembled and rebuilt. Cost for complete rebuild of the 1C series is $250 per panel, for any of the panel types - assuming the frames are not damaged.
Incidentally, the problem with mine was not wire delamination or separation of the mylar, it was simply corrosion of the wires in spots where the protective coating was not fully covering them.
How about 3 stacked magnets/side for a 2" MR ribbon as in the Apogee Full Range?
Thanks
Andrew
Hi Andrew
yes 3 will make the field a bit more uniform and up the sensitivity about 1 db. If you do 2 and back them up with a steel plate about 3/8 to 1/2 inch its likely close to 3( just plane mild steel is fine no magnetic iron needed here as your not trying to make a large pole piece just directing the field a bit) .
yes 3 will make the field a bit more uniform and up the sensitivity about 1 db. If you do 2 and back them up with a steel plate about 3/8 to 1/2 inch its likely close to 3( just plane mild steel is fine no magnetic iron needed here as your not trying to make a large pole piece just directing the field a bit) .
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Magnepan told me.....thay do not sale are have any more 36ga tweeter wire
An Do not have any more of the old push-pull wire tweeter used in any of the Tympani.... thay never re-wired the old push -pull tweeters.... thay sold hold new old stock tweeters....there out....thay sold...for $400-450ea....
So now yes... the bass panels can be re-wired by Magnepan....$250ea
So if you are getting tweeter from Magnepan for your Tympani 1c...that's news.....but I think not!
let us all know?.....thanks
.I have work in the Audio biz from 1980s owned Magnepans an dealt with them from that time...great people to work with
thay never miss lead ones........
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Wow that was a lot of replies!
For WrineX's question, I think I'd prefer the ribbon over the quasi planar. I have heard both the quasi planar and ribbon tweeter so I'd rather just make a ribbon instead of trying to remake the original driver. I appreciate it though, thank you. I do have the correct wire laying around.
I'm seeing talk about the baffle here. The baffle on this speaker is quite wide. Will that have a negative or positive effect on the ribbon performance? I know these are very newbie-ish questions but i'm just trying to piece together what I need to do and go from there.
Hope this thread stays alive and we get more input! This topic fascinates me and I hope this discussion remains interesting for everyone involved. Build photos will be posted when I get to making them.
For WrineX's question, I think I'd prefer the ribbon over the quasi planar. I have heard both the quasi planar and ribbon tweeter so I'd rather just make a ribbon instead of trying to remake the original driver. I appreciate it though, thank you. I do have the correct wire laying around.
I'm seeing talk about the baffle here. The baffle on this speaker is quite wide. Will that have a negative or positive effect on the ribbon performance? I know these are very newbie-ish questions but i'm just trying to piece together what I need to do and go from there.
Hope this thread stays alive and we get more input! This topic fascinates me and I hope this discussion remains interesting for everyone involved. Build photos will be posted when I get to making them.
"I'm seeing talk about the baffle here. The baffle on this speaker is quite wide. Will that have a negative or positive effect on the ribbon performance? I know these are very newbie-ish questions but i'm just trying to piece together what I need to do and go from there. "
The baffle can have a very pronounced effect. Its probably best to read up on effect of baffle size shape on freq. response as there is much to cover. There should be quite a bit on the net on this.
To try and condense it...
Small baffle will effect feq response by rolling off low freq so small baffle will not work if trying to take a driver low in freq. Large baffle will support reproduction of lower frequency.
As well baffle shape and size can effect the smoothness of the freq response due to diffraction effects, again best to read up on that.
Another thing to consider with a true ribbon like you are thinking of making is the gap between the ribbons edge and the magnets. If you make the gap large ( over about 1-2 mm) its as if the ribbon has almost no baffle due to the sound pressure leaking around the sides of the ribbon. So if trying to take say a 1 " wide ribbon down lower than about 1 K hz you will need to make the gaps small (about 1mm) and make your baffle shape size such that it can support frequency below 1K AND not introduce diffraction effects that will upset the overall response.
This can be a very difficult thing to do in a long ribbon just from construction standpoint as the small gap is difficult to accomplish without the ribbon rubbing the magnets.
I recommend the approach where the gap between the magnets and ribbon is actually quite large (about 3/16 to 1/4") and keep the baffle small, BUT electrical crossover is actually set at around 400 hz. Look up pics on the net of Apogee Duetta or Stage loudspeaker to get the idea.
This approach results in low diffraction effects and the ribbon ,although actually starting to roll off lower frequency's at about 1 khz because of the rather large gaps, still has useful output down to about 400 hz. From here you simply play with bass panel crossover point and slope to fill in the weakening response of ribbon below 1khz. Get the x over point / slopes right and the sensitivity of the ribbon right ( do this by ear!) and it can give a great result.
You can get the ribbon to go lower with tight gaps AND larger baffle around the ribbon, BUT it is quite difficult to deal with all the associated issues and the method used by Apogee neatly side steps these.
BTW Apogee sets the ribbon on the edge of the big bass panel. Works well and I would move in that direction.
TThat said however I built some prototypes once that used two base panels with the ribbon set in the center of the two. Sort of a concentric design similar to the old Quad electrostatics. The results were interesting. Im not sure if one sounded better than the other BUT the concentric was consistently more warm and neutral sounding were the ribbon on edge design seemed to have more variation in tonal character from source to source. It seemed the concentric had noticeably less problems with room effects and placement problems.
I mention this because I believe the Maggie has two bass panels on each side?? If so you may consider splitting them up and placing your ribbon in between at some point.
The baffle can have a very pronounced effect. Its probably best to read up on effect of baffle size shape on freq. response as there is much to cover. There should be quite a bit on the net on this.
To try and condense it...
Small baffle will effect feq response by rolling off low freq so small baffle will not work if trying to take a driver low in freq. Large baffle will support reproduction of lower frequency.
As well baffle shape and size can effect the smoothness of the freq response due to diffraction effects, again best to read up on that.
Another thing to consider with a true ribbon like you are thinking of making is the gap between the ribbons edge and the magnets. If you make the gap large ( over about 1-2 mm) its as if the ribbon has almost no baffle due to the sound pressure leaking around the sides of the ribbon. So if trying to take say a 1 " wide ribbon down lower than about 1 K hz you will need to make the gaps small (about 1mm) and make your baffle shape size such that it can support frequency below 1K AND not introduce diffraction effects that will upset the overall response.
This can be a very difficult thing to do in a long ribbon just from construction standpoint as the small gap is difficult to accomplish without the ribbon rubbing the magnets.
I recommend the approach where the gap between the magnets and ribbon is actually quite large (about 3/16 to 1/4") and keep the baffle small, BUT electrical crossover is actually set at around 400 hz. Look up pics on the net of Apogee Duetta or Stage loudspeaker to get the idea.
This approach results in low diffraction effects and the ribbon ,although actually starting to roll off lower frequency's at about 1 khz because of the rather large gaps, still has useful output down to about 400 hz. From here you simply play with bass panel crossover point and slope to fill in the weakening response of ribbon below 1khz. Get the x over point / slopes right and the sensitivity of the ribbon right ( do this by ear!) and it can give a great result.
You can get the ribbon to go lower with tight gaps AND larger baffle around the ribbon, BUT it is quite difficult to deal with all the associated issues and the method used by Apogee neatly side steps these.
BTW Apogee sets the ribbon on the edge of the big bass panel. Works well and I would move in that direction.
TThat said however I built some prototypes once that used two base panels with the ribbon set in the center of the two. Sort of a concentric design similar to the old Quad electrostatics. The results were interesting. Im not sure if one sounded better than the other BUT the concentric was consistently more warm and neutral sounding were the ribbon on edge design seemed to have more variation in tonal character from source to source. It seemed the concentric had noticeably less problems with room effects and placement problems.
I mention this because I believe the Maggie has two bass panels on each side?? If so you may consider splitting them up and placing your ribbon in between at some point.
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Yes, the Tympani is a mechanical three way, electrical two way. Two bass panels crossed at 1.2khz and a mid/high planar driver to go from there. The tweeter is oriented in such a way that it's close to the bass panels like the Apogee.
So effectively, we're just talking about traditional theory for an OB dipole, then? The baffle is quite large in comparison to the driver, it's as wide as the bass panel and has a lot of 'dead space' that isn't being used. It does have small cutouts placed however, i'm assuming this is so sound can pass through for the dipole effect to take more precedent.
It sounds to me like the best idea would be to set the ribbon up, and move the magnets as close as possible to the ribbon while playing a 100hz test tone and move the magnets as close as possible while listening very closely for any rubbing. Similar to how some would play a test tone through a woofer during a refoam job.
Again, thank you for the info Lowmass, you are being very kind helping me out here, I am really excited to get this project started!
So effectively, we're just talking about traditional theory for an OB dipole, then? The baffle is quite large in comparison to the driver, it's as wide as the bass panel and has a lot of 'dead space' that isn't being used. It does have small cutouts placed however, i'm assuming this is so sound can pass through for the dipole effect to take more precedent.
It sounds to me like the best idea would be to set the ribbon up, and move the magnets as close as possible to the ribbon while playing a 100hz test tone and move the magnets as close as possible while listening very closely for any rubbing. Similar to how some would play a test tone through a woofer during a refoam job.
Again, thank you for the info Lowmass, you are being very kind helping me out here, I am really excited to get this project started!
Are Magnepan Inc. on facebook? You should ask Magnepan directly. E-Mail is often problematic. Sometimes they answer, sometimes not. As far as I know, Magnepan may still have some tweeters in stock.
Tympani tweeters can be repaired if they are not completley distroyed. In most cases the plastic film (Mylar of unknown type) is melted from overload. The film can replaced but it is not possible to get the thin wire Magnepan used. I have cut long strips of aluminium foil as replacement for the wire. Yes, it is an awful job but not imposible. It is also possible to use a thinner plastic film with the foil, an upgrade over the original tweeters.
The ribbon tweeters made by Magnepan cannot replace the original Magneplanar type of tweeters as they are limited to higher frequences. Another drawback, is that Magnepan placed the tweeter too far from the bass drivers, giving strange beaming and reducing the listening sweet spot to almost nothing. Apogee had the tweeter far closer to the bass and gave a better soundstaging.
Yes, I talked to Gary the production manager just a few days ago. The quote they sent me indicates that they are rebuilding my low, mid AND high frequency (tweeter) panels on the 1C to original factory specs. And since the tweeter panels are push-pull (I looked closely at them when I removed the socks) it's clear that they are still repairing newer versions of the Tympani. They specifically are not repairing 1B or older models.
I also spoke directly to the repair tech when I dropped my speakers off, and she has a jig which can be adjusted to put the wires on each type of panel; she showed me the rolls of wire. Now maybe they aren't selling the wire to customers any more, but...
Well, the tweeters of the IC have a thicker wire than the ID. You can rebuild a IC tweeter with the flat wire (foil) used the the 20-series midrange driver. IC is about 7.4 Ohm, IC is more like 4.7 Ohm. With the foil you can also tell MAgnepan to use the thinner Mylar used in some Tympani mids.
Thanks for your time.....vary good news.....
But I well pass myself on a pr 1C Tympani.....for $1000.+shipng...good luck
Hi Martin - Came across your thread while investigating Maggie 1D tweeters. I Have a pair in excellent cosmetic shape but one tweeter panel recently died. Have not yet opened it up to investigate and am considering the ribbon tweeter route myself.
Have you made progress with yours? Do you have any insights you could share with us?
Tim
Have you made progress with yours? Do you have any insights you could share with us?
Tim