I am currently working on a school project with regards to Planar Speakers and Corrugation and i have some questions that i couldn't find on the internet.
1) The gap in between the traces. Does it affect the sound quality output? And how is it measured?
2) Foil corrugation. How does the pitch-to-pitch between each corrugation affect the sound?
3)What adhesives can be used to bond Kapton/Mylar onto the aluminium foil?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
1) The gap in between the traces. Does it affect the sound quality output? And how is it measured?
2) Foil corrugation. How does the pitch-to-pitch between each corrugation affect the sound?
3)What adhesives can be used to bond Kapton/Mylar onto the aluminium foil?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
its school project so I give u the easy bake recipie....
1- It can effect BUT just make them about 1mm (doesnt have to be exact) and u willbe fine. Larger gaps will raise resistance(less foil) and can have some negative or posative effects that are determined by trial and error with measurment and listening.
2-The largest effect of the pitch is in the upper octaves. By varying the size pitch you can move the resonance created by the stiffness around a bit. This resonance is usually around 7-12 khz and its intensity can be controlled somewhat by pitch size, ribbon mass, type and amount of adhesive. Again these things are optimised by trial and error.
3- There are many many types but for the home hobby things like 3M Super 77 spray adhesive work well. Adhesive transfer tape is ok but usually quite thick and heavy but ok for project
In the end if u want to get serious then all the components and configurations can and will need to be manipulated with much test and listen to arrive at great sound. The beauty of the ribbon is that decent sound is easily had BUT trully great sound is an exersize to say the least.
Some times its easyer to do a "FO" foil only ribbon and build a transformer. Not too hard really
Enjoy!
1- It can effect BUT just make them about 1mm (doesnt have to be exact) and u willbe fine. Larger gaps will raise resistance(less foil) and can have some negative or posative effects that are determined by trial and error with measurment and listening.
2-The largest effect of the pitch is in the upper octaves. By varying the size pitch you can move the resonance created by the stiffness around a bit. This resonance is usually around 7-12 khz and its intensity can be controlled somewhat by pitch size, ribbon mass, type and amount of adhesive. Again these things are optimised by trial and error.
3- There are many many types but for the home hobby things like 3M Super 77 spray adhesive work well. Adhesive transfer tape is ok but usually quite thick and heavy but ok for project
In the end if u want to get serious then all the components and configurations can and will need to be manipulated with much test and listen to arrive at great sound. The beauty of the ribbon is that decent sound is easily had BUT trully great sound is an exersize to say the least.
Some times its easyer to do a "FO" foil only ribbon and build a transformer. Not too hard really
Enjoy!
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Thank you for your reply.
1) By resistance, do you mean the current flowing through the aluminium foil in a serpentine manner? And the gaps have to be placed in line with the gaps of the magnets am i right?
2) Could you elaborate on the upper octaves? Don't really get it.
And what sizes are there for the corrugation rollers (Those huge ones)
3) I have also found super glue can be used for bonding Kapton to the foil.
1) By resistance, do you mean the current flowing through the aluminium foil in a serpentine manner? And the gaps have to be placed in line with the gaps of the magnets am i right?
2) Could you elaborate on the upper octaves? Don't really get it.
And what sizes are there for the corrugation rollers (Those huge ones)
3) I have also found super glue can be used for bonding Kapton to the foil.
1- yes
2-the corrugations make the ribbon stiff across the width. Each corrugation is kindof like a riggid beam and the taller the corrugation(beam) the stiffer it is across the width of the ribbon. Stiffer structures "ring" or resonate at a higher frequency. So depending on how large or small the corrugations are will effect at what frequency the ribbon will misbehave. This will effect the frequency response and result it a less than smooth and flat response. many things can effect this however such as the plastic backing and or the type and amount of adhesive used.
Some designs will use very small corrugations combined with well damped adhesive and plastic combinations to achieve a smooth response.
This "ringing", depending on things metioned above, often seems to happen around the higher frequencys say above 7 khz but could be lower.
3- there are certainly about infinite combinations of materials that can be used
2-the corrugations make the ribbon stiff across the width. Each corrugation is kindof like a riggid beam and the taller the corrugation(beam) the stiffer it is across the width of the ribbon. Stiffer structures "ring" or resonate at a higher frequency. So depending on how large or small the corrugations are will effect at what frequency the ribbon will misbehave. This will effect the frequency response and result it a less than smooth and flat response. many things can effect this however such as the plastic backing and or the type and amount of adhesive used.
Some designs will use very small corrugations combined with well damped adhesive and plastic combinations to achieve a smooth response.
This "ringing", depending on things metioned above, often seems to happen around the higher frequencys say above 7 khz but could be lower.
3- there are certainly about infinite combinations of materials that can be used
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The OMNI mic system is a decent and inexpensive unit. The CLIO system is a bit more sophisticated but about 2X more $. For most work the inexpensive OMNI mic will do.
I havent used ANSYS enough to comment,but have done some simulations in Inventor and Solid Works CAD. I had some access to ANSYS for a short time BUT as with this type of thing there is often a world of difference between simulations and real world results. Much skill and experience necessary in set up. This is especially true when you start mixing materials together as in the laminated ribbon constructions. In the end I found the simulations interesting BUT I have learned MUCH more by simply putting in the hard work and building literally hundreds of different designs and testing. Then theirs the countless hours of actual listening which once you've gotten over the thrill and shall I say delusions of preconceived beliefs, will humble you to say the least.
I would say that despite years of measurement and test, in the end every transducer is "colored" in some way and final design is best lead with the ear.
I havent used ANSYS enough to comment,but have done some simulations in Inventor and Solid Works CAD. I had some access to ANSYS for a short time BUT as with this type of thing there is often a world of difference between simulations and real world results. Much skill and experience necessary in set up. This is especially true when you start mixing materials together as in the laminated ribbon constructions. In the end I found the simulations interesting BUT I have learned MUCH more by simply putting in the hard work and building literally hundreds of different designs and testing. Then theirs the countless hours of actual listening which once you've gotten over the thrill and shall I say delusions of preconceived beliefs, will humble you to say the least.
I would say that despite years of measurement and test, in the end every transducer is "colored" in some way and final design is best lead with the ear.
Have been building full range planars for many years now, stopped using mylar, too many funny sounds. Don't use crossovers either. You can get the impedance you require from using different widths of magnets and different widths of aluminium tape. Have stopped using neo magnets as well too expensive. I now use ferrite magnets 40 x 20 x 10 mm.
full range planars
My speakers are all full range, and use aluminium tape already glued, never used corrugations never needed any anyway. Used to build big ones 4' x 2', but stopped building big ones too heavy at my time of life (79). My latest pair are 16" square, have a few more bits to use up.Used to cut my tape from 9 mm width down to required size must have cut 100's of meters. But mostly buy 3 mm tape now, have also used 5 mm wide tape as well depending on the width of the magnets which varied from 12.7 mm to 25 mm. Also I have changed my method of laying the tape. A lot easier now, and takes up less room on the cutout edge!
My speakers are all full range, and use aluminium tape already glued, never used corrugations never needed any anyway. Used to build big ones 4' x 2', but stopped building big ones too heavy at my time of life (79). My latest pair are 16" square, have a few more bits to use up.Used to cut my tape from 9 mm width down to required size must have cut 100's of meters. But mostly buy 3 mm tape now, have also used 5 mm wide tape as well depending on the width of the magnets which varied from 12.7 mm to 25 mm. Also I have changed my method of laying the tape. A lot easier now, and takes up less room on the cutout edge!
This is how I do it
"The tall neodymium ribbon". Part 3
"3M spraymount" does not work with 0,006mm "kapton" if the corrugation pitch is as fine as seen in the articel. The 0,002mm "mylar" works just fine though.
Biggest problem with the corrugation device is where to find different gears without having to get them manufactured = expensive.
"The tall neodymium ribbon". Part 3
"3M spraymount" does not work with 0,006mm "kapton" if the corrugation pitch is as fine as seen in the articel. The 0,002mm "mylar" works just fine though.
Biggest problem with the corrugation device is where to find different gears without having to get them manufactured = expensive.
Jamesbos.... thanks for your years of work on ribbons... an giving us pic an your finding....
Dahlberg......looks like the ribbon from the Apogee Duetta speakers MT....thanks for your post.... of what I well call, like henrys speakers......Art....keep up great work
George Short.....work with Apogee on the MT ribbon on the Stage speaker...I still own today.....then made his own full range ribbon...you may have seen...years back
Fibonacci Technologies
Dahlberg......looks like the ribbon from the Apogee Duetta speakers MT....thanks for your post.... of what I well call, like henrys speakers......Art....keep up great work
George Short.....work with Apogee on the MT ribbon on the Stage speaker...I still own today.....then made his own full range ribbon...you may have seen...years back
Fibonacci Technologies
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