I'm working on a design that needs two B&G Neo10.
I don't really have the room to mount one above the other (vertical alignment).
So I'm wondering what the acoustical effects would be from mounting them side by side.
This will be in a (passive for now) 3-way with a Vifa NE225W-08 woofer and a tweeter that I have yet to decide on, in a 1.2 ft^3 passive radiator enclosure.
I plan on crossing woofer to mid at around 250Hz or so. This is only intended as a near-field speaker, so high volume isn't going to be an issue.
What do you guys think?
Bob
P.S. I have experience with the woofer and mid panels (from VMPS) but none with anything from B&G.
I don't really have the room to mount one above the other (vertical alignment).
So I'm wondering what the acoustical effects would be from mounting them side by side.
This will be in a (passive for now) 3-way with a Vifa NE225W-08 woofer and a tweeter that I have yet to decide on, in a 1.2 ft^3 passive radiator enclosure.
I plan on crossing woofer to mid at around 250Hz or so. This is only intended as a near-field speaker, so high volume isn't going to be an issue.
What do you guys think?
Bob
P.S. I have experience with the woofer and mid panels (from VMPS) but none with anything from B&G.
That's a good question. The reason is that I will be crossing them at about 250-280hz with a first order crossover.
One of the main goals of this "trial" is to keep the speaker properly time aligned and in phase. So without adding at least 6 more crossover components to the design (and the added effects of those components), I have to make sure the Neo10s aren't over-driven.
Eventually this will become an active tri-amped speaker. I was originally planning on using two Neopannels from VMPS (Brian and I had discussed this design a few times over the phone) and angling each of them about 5-10 degrees off center (to counter the narrowing dispersion). Life kept getting in the way of actually building a test rig to see how it would work. Now that the Neopannels are no longer available, I'll have to start working with the Neo10s. But I wanted to see if anyone else had tried it before I drop the $400 for a pair of the Neo10s.
One of the main goals of this "trial" is to keep the speaker properly time aligned and in phase. So without adding at least 6 more crossover components to the design (and the added effects of those components), I have to make sure the Neo10s aren't over-driven.
Eventually this will become an active tri-amped speaker. I was originally planning on using two Neopannels from VMPS (Brian and I had discussed this design a few times over the phone) and angling each of them about 5-10 degrees off center (to counter the narrowing dispersion). Life kept getting in the way of actually building a test rig to see how it would work. Now that the Neopannels are no longer available, I'll have to start working with the Neo10s. But I wanted to see if anyone else had tried it before I drop the $400 for a pair of the Neo10s.
Neo 10
Check out the link I have provided. It should give you some answers to your question.Serenity Acoustics Super-7, Serenity Acoustics The Super-7
Check out the link I have provided. It should give you some answers to your question.Serenity Acoustics Super-7, Serenity Acoustics The Super-7
How about a speaker that uses dual Neo10's as the M in a MTMWW style arrangement?
RMAF new stuff, new stuff.... (pics on page 2)
Edit Note: maestrok1 and I must read the same forums.
RMAF new stuff, new stuff.... (pics on page 2)
Edit Note: maestrok1 and I must read the same forums.
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First order at 250-280hz will not protect those drivers enough. Do you have a measurement setup?
First order slopes don't work well very often and it's very obvious when they're not working as the speaker will sound harsh or strained. You need very wide bandwidth drivers and they have to be crossed in their comfort area, not at their limits.
If you look at some commercial offerings that advertise first order slopes, you'll notice they're using MUCH more than a simple cap or coil for a crossover. Believing that adding more parts will make the speaker sound poor is a fallacy by those who don't know how to correctly design a crossover.
First order slopes don't work well very often and it's very obvious when they're not working as the speaker will sound harsh or strained. You need very wide bandwidth drivers and they have to be crossed in their comfort area, not at their limits.
If you look at some commercial offerings that advertise first order slopes, you'll notice they're using MUCH more than a simple cap or coil for a crossover. Believing that adding more parts will make the speaker sound poor is a fallacy by those who don't know how to correctly design a crossover.
This may be exactly what you want for a smooth transition to the tweeter. I am planning on doing this myself, crossing 2 x Neo10 -side-by-side to a TPL-150H in a MT arrangement around 1.5-2kHz (wherever measurements will show that the two Neo10 is down -6dB at 80 degrees horizontally to match the dispersion of the waveguide).
Two will of course give greater output (sensitivity) and better low-end extension due to mutual coupling.
Not built yet but the concept will basically be like this:
Approximate crossover points:
+ Neo10: 300-1,800 Hz
+ TPL-150H: 1,800-20,000 Hz
+ 12P80Nd: 90-300 Hz
+ Dipole18: 27-90 Hz (in H-frame).
Main weakness will be the loss of dipole CD from about 500 Hz and above...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Approximate crossover points:
+ Neo10: 300-1,800 Hz
+ TPL-150H: 1,800-20,000 Hz
+ 12P80Nd: 90-300 Hz
+ Dipole18: 27-90 Hz (in H-frame).
Main weakness will be the loss of dipole CD from about 500 Hz and above...
My design is a large bookshelf (>27" tall) 3-way augmented passive radiator design with a Vifa NE225W-08 8" woofer and something like the Aurum Cantus AST25120 tweeter and a pair of Neo10s with crossovers points at about 250-280 hz and around 2-4KHz.
According to Brian, all his designs were first order and had a x-over for the mid at around 280Hz. I'm being overly cautious with my design using a pair of mids each.
The other reason for not wanting to go with 4th order crossovers is that it would literally double the cost of the speakers.
InOtIn, that does look like a fun design.
According to Brian, all his designs were first order and had a x-over for the mid at around 280Hz. I'm being overly cautious with my design using a pair of mids each.
The other reason for not wanting to go with 4th order crossovers is that it would literally double the cost of the speakers.
InOtIn, that does look like a fun design.
So does yours.
I would have thought the Neo10 would benefit from a steeper crossover than what you are planning but apparently Danny Richie uses a first order HP crossover at 200 Hz in his Super 7:
Ribbon Midrange in a 3way design: Good idea? - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
That is 4 drivers per side though.
Yes the cost for passives escalate quite quickly so why not go active from the get go? Then you will be able to experiment a lot more too.
By the way, I just laid two Neo10 next to each other and measured the edge-to-edge distance of the actual openings from which the sound emanates (the small holes) and it was about half an inch shorter horizontally than vertically, so personally I will be orienting them like in my illustration rather than on the side like in the Super 7 for widest horizontal dispersion.
I would have thought the Neo10 would benefit from a steeper crossover than what you are planning but apparently Danny Richie uses a first order HP crossover at 200 Hz in his Super 7:
Ribbon Midrange in a 3way design: Good idea? - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
That is 4 drivers per side though.
Yes the cost for passives escalate quite quickly so why not go active from the get go? Then you will be able to experiment a lot more too.
By the way, I just laid two Neo10 next to each other and measured the edge-to-edge distance of the actual openings from which the sound emanates (the small holes) and it was about half an inch shorter horizontally than vertically, so personally I will be orienting them like in my illustration rather than on the side like in the Super 7 for widest horizontal dispersion.
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Hi Peter,
Yes I did thank you. Sorry for not having replied sooner but I just got back from my Easter holiday.
I will reply to you more in detail later but we built and listened to the prototypes as planned but everything took much longer than expected (especially the Audiolense setup) so we did not have a chance to seriously compare the Neo10 vs the 12P80Nd I felt.
Here are some pics:
However, it was clear that it was enough of a dead race that this will probably transcend into a 3-way with the 12P80Nd only, playing all the way up to the TPL-150H... mainly to reduce cost and complexity. So it will basically turn into something like this (but will try 1 x Dipole18 in the H-frame [sized for this] instead of the current 2 x OB15).
The 12P80Nd was down significantly at xo freq 100 Hz but not more than the H-frames at target Fc of 30 Hz so would not be the SPL limiting driver in the overall design with its higher Pe and Xmax.
May try U-frame too to increase SPL at Fc (and thus the capability of the overall system).
6 channels were driven with a set of NC400+SMPS600 each and 2 channels with a PrimaLuna Prolouge2 with Psvane tubes (Neo10 or TPL-150H). Source was PC with RME HDSP 9632 + AO4S-192, 6 channels analog + 2 channels digital to TPA Buffalo32S (tweeter). Playback, convolver, and volume control via JRiver 19. Padding down of mid and treble via integrated volume pot on PL P2 and TC Electronics Pilot on Hypex. Sub and bass full 0dBFs out to Hypex modules
Yes I did thank you. Sorry for not having replied sooner but I just got back from my Easter holiday.
I will reply to you more in detail later but we built and listened to the prototypes as planned but everything took much longer than expected (especially the Audiolense setup) so we did not have a chance to seriously compare the Neo10 vs the 12P80Nd I felt.
Here are some pics:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
However, it was clear that it was enough of a dead race that this will probably transcend into a 3-way with the 12P80Nd only, playing all the way up to the TPL-150H... mainly to reduce cost and complexity. So it will basically turn into something like this (but will try 1 x Dipole18 in the H-frame [sized for this] instead of the current 2 x OB15).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The 12P80Nd was down significantly at xo freq 100 Hz but not more than the H-frames at target Fc of 30 Hz so would not be the SPL limiting driver in the overall design with its higher Pe and Xmax.
May try U-frame too to increase SPL at Fc (and thus the capability of the overall system).
6 channels were driven with a set of NC400+SMPS600 each and 2 channels with a PrimaLuna Prolouge2 with Psvane tubes (Neo10 or TPL-150H). Source was PC with RME HDSP 9632 + AO4S-192, 6 channels analog + 2 channels digital to TPA Buffalo32S (tweeter). Playback, convolver, and volume control via JRiver 19. Padding down of mid and treble via integrated volume pot on PL P2 and TC Electronics Pilot on Hypex. Sub and bass full 0dBFs out to Hypex modules
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Hi Niklas,
Thanks a lot for the update, I really appreciate it. The speakers look great by the way
If you have more details to share regarding the comparison between the Neo10 and the 12p80nd when you return from the easter Holiday, I would very much like to hear about it! Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Thanks a lot for the update, I really appreciate it. The speakers look great by the way
If you have more details to share regarding the comparison between the Neo10 and the 12p80nd when you return from the easter Holiday, I would very much like to hear about it! Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes I did thank you. Sorry for not having replied sooner but I just got back from my Easter holiday.
I will reply to you more in detail later but we built and listened to the prototypes as planned but everything took much longer than expected (especially the Audiolense setup) so we did not have a chance to seriously compare the Neo10 vs the 12P80Nd I felt.
Here are some pics:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
However, it was clear that it was enough of a dead race that this will probably transcend into a 3-way with the 12P80Nd only, playing all the way up to the TPL-150H... mainly to reduce cost and complexity. So it will basically turn into something like this (but will try 1 x Dipole18 in the H-frame [sized for this] instead of the current 2 x OB15).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The 12P80Nd was down significantly at xo freq 100 Hz but not more than the H-frames at target Fc of 30 Hz so would not be the SPL limiting driver in the overall design with its higher Pe and Xmax.
May try U-frame too to increase SPL at Fc (and thus the capability of the overall system).
6 channels were driven with a set of NC400+SMPS600 each and 2 channels with a PrimaLuna Prolouge2 with Psvane tubes (Neo10 or TPL-150H). Source was PC with RME HDSP 9632 + AO4S-192, 6 channels analog + 2 channels digital to TPA Buffalo32S (tweeter). Playback, convolver, and volume control via JRiver 19. Padding down of mid and treble via integrated volume pot on PL P2 and TC Electronics Pilot on Hypex. Sub and bass full 0dBFs out to Hypex modules
source
wow what a crappy source to test those drivers..
Source was PC with RME HDSP 9632 + AO4S-192, 6 channels analog + 2 channels digital to TPA Buffalo32S (tweeter). Playback, convolver, and volume control via JRiver 19. Padding down of mid and treble via integrated volume pot on PL P2 and TC Electronics Pilot on Hypex. Sub and bass full 0dBFs out to Hypex modules
wow what a crappy source to test those drivers..
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