Background: Years back I was into speaker building and purchased the Manger drivers and built a "temporary" system from them. Peerless 850146 10" in a sealed ~70l box, dcx2496 and a very cheap Panasonic 6 channel class D amp. It was "good enough" and life had other issues to deal with so temporary turned into a decade or so. Finally the amp is starting to act up so it has re-sparked my interest finishing it.
Planning thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...er-based-system-would-love-your-thoughts.html
Step 1 - New Amp(s)
Oct 30 Ordered and received 2x Hypex As2.100. I did get stuck with an unexpected $38 import tax which I have never dealt with and caused some delivery inconvenience.
Nov 4th: New amps are configured in a temporary but working setup and working great.
Step 2 - Measurement
Oct 30 Ordered a UMIK-1 mic and plan on setting up a measurement system with ARTA.
Nov 4th: Arrived safe and sound.
Nov 9th: Did some initial measurements.
Step 3 - Develop crossover for Manger/Peerless
I never settled on a crossover with the dcx2496 so I'd like to get to know the new Hypex DSP software and measurement system with this work.
Nov 8: Developed an initial crossover.
Manger: 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz + 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz
Woofer: 2nd order LP q=.7 @400Hz + 1st order LP @400Hz + boost @ 200Hz q=.7 gain=+3db
Sounds decent just listening for enjoyment.
Step 4 - Cabinet retro fit + new woofers
March 6th Beyma 12P80Nd (pdf) have arrived. Now working on doing some cabinet retrofitting for them.
Step 5 - Develop crossover for Manger/Beyma
Step 6 - Cabinet rebuild
Based on what I've learned so far I will build a new set of cabinets that hopefully will look like proper furniture and not packing crates.
Reference Documents
Beyma 12P80Nd - Product page - pdf
Neutrik Speakon
Hypex As2.100- Product Page - User manual
UMIK-1 mic- Spec sheet
Will update as I go.
Comments always welcome.
Planning thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...er-based-system-would-love-your-thoughts.html
Step 1 - New Amp(s)
Oct 30 Ordered and received 2x Hypex As2.100. I did get stuck with an unexpected $38 import tax which I have never dealt with and caused some delivery inconvenience.
Nov 4th: New amps are configured in a temporary but working setup and working great.
Step 2 - Measurement
Oct 30 Ordered a UMIK-1 mic and plan on setting up a measurement system with ARTA.
Nov 4th: Arrived safe and sound.
Nov 9th: Did some initial measurements.
Step 3 - Develop crossover for Manger/Peerless
I never settled on a crossover with the dcx2496 so I'd like to get to know the new Hypex DSP software and measurement system with this work.
Nov 8: Developed an initial crossover.
Manger: 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz + 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz
Woofer: 2nd order LP q=.7 @400Hz + 1st order LP @400Hz + boost @ 200Hz q=.7 gain=+3db
Sounds decent just listening for enjoyment.
Step 4 - Cabinet retro fit + new woofers
March 6th Beyma 12P80Nd (pdf) have arrived. Now working on doing some cabinet retrofitting for them.
Step 5 - Develop crossover for Manger/Beyma
Step 6 - Cabinet rebuild
Based on what I've learned so far I will build a new set of cabinets that hopefully will look like proper furniture and not packing crates.
Reference Documents
Beyma 12P80Nd - Product page - pdf
Neutrik Speakon
Hypex As2.100- Product Page - User manual
UMIK-1 mic- Spec sheet
Will update as I go.
Comments always welcome.
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Made some progress.
* UMIK-1 mic arrived
* Tested amps with spare drivers
* Wired up Mangers and Peerless drivers
* Spent some time tweaking the DSP filters.
I close mic'ed each driver separately since I have a lot of reflective things where the speakers are currently located. Probably 1 inch from the woofer and about 1 foot from the Manger. When I got closer than that to the Manger the measurements had some pretty erratic information and it was hard to know how to tweak things.
I set 4th order LR overlays on ARTA @ 400Hz and tweaked the filters till I was as close as I could while keeping adding too many filter functions.
I ended up with:
Manger: 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz + 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz
Woofer: 2nd order LP q=.7 @400Hz + 1st order LP @400Hz + boost @ 200Hz q=.7 gain=+3db
Measuring full spectrum it would appear that the boost on the woofer brought up the sensitivities to about match.
I think it has improved a bit although I have not done any critical listening. Just listening for enjoyment, I would say it is pretty dang good! The Peerless is maybe not the best sounding in the 400Hz range so I hope the Beyma will clean that up.
Working with the computer based DSP filter software is mind blowing. I am sure that in a few hours time I did more productive speaker design work than I have previously in total. My hat is off to all you electronics geniuses who brought this level of control to the casual experimenter like myself.
The weakest point in my work is the measurement. I will definitely need to do some research on the proper technique for what I am doing. The Manger measurements are really, really messy and I can see a lot of energy below 100Hz which I don't understand is a real part of the Manger (how could it?) or something in the room/system.
Anyway, so far so good and more another day.
Vifa M11 and D27 as test subjects which survived to tell the tale.And some really special speaker wire
.
Panasonic amp hiding in shame under there.
* UMIK-1 mic arrived
* Tested amps with spare drivers
* Wired up Mangers and Peerless drivers
* Spent some time tweaking the DSP filters.
I close mic'ed each driver separately since I have a lot of reflective things where the speakers are currently located. Probably 1 inch from the woofer and about 1 foot from the Manger. When I got closer than that to the Manger the measurements had some pretty erratic information and it was hard to know how to tweak things.
I set 4th order LR overlays on ARTA @ 400Hz and tweaked the filters till I was as close as I could while keeping adding too many filter functions.
I ended up with:
Manger: 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz + 2nd order HP q=.7 @450Hz
Woofer: 2nd order LP q=.7 @400Hz + 1st order LP @400Hz + boost @ 200Hz q=.7 gain=+3db
Measuring full spectrum it would appear that the boost on the woofer brought up the sensitivities to about match.
I think it has improved a bit although I have not done any critical listening. Just listening for enjoyment, I would say it is pretty dang good! The Peerless is maybe not the best sounding in the 400Hz range so I hope the Beyma will clean that up.
Working with the computer based DSP filter software is mind blowing. I am sure that in a few hours time I did more productive speaker design work than I have previously in total. My hat is off to all you electronics geniuses who brought this level of control to the casual experimenter like myself.
The weakest point in my work is the measurement. I will definitely need to do some research on the proper technique for what I am doing. The Manger measurements are really, really messy and I can see a lot of energy below 100Hz which I don't understand is a real part of the Manger (how could it?) or something in the room/system.
Anyway, so far so good and more another day.
Vifa M11 and D27 as test subjects which survived to tell the tale.And some really special speaker wire
.
Panasonic amp hiding in shame under there.
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I'm curious to see how this plays out. Is there a reason you are using ARTA vs REW? Also, how are the hypex amps working out? I'm thinking of building an active 2 way using a minidsp and home made 4 channel class D amp, but 2 hypex as2.100 look workable and cheaper. I don't understand the as2.100 specs either. Looks like they have 2 ucd180 in them, but the PSU limits them to 100w into 4ohm or 50 into 8. The ucd180 puts out 120w into 8, so can't these put 100w into 4 or 8 ohms if they are PS limited?
Also, cabling seems a pain with plates in the speaker backs. Any thoughts on making the plates into a standalone amp? Good luck!
Also, cabling seems a pain with plates in the speaker backs. Any thoughts on making the plates into a standalone amp? Good luck!
ARTA vs REW. I don't know why I am choosing one over the other. I did some quick searching and found ARTA and decided to give it a try. Would you advise RFW instead? I assume we are talking about this:
REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
hypex amps. Completely love them - two of the best things I have ever purchased. I do get an occasional slight, soft pop at idle from them but I think that may be from my source. Working perfectly for my needs.
I can't answer your question about specs but I would contact them or look in the thread here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/144412-hypex-ucd-as2-100-a.html
Clutter: And finally I find them fairly tidy mounted on the back of the speakers. I prefer everything on the speaker cabinet and just a digital cable running to that. Yes, not as elegant just speaker wire connection but that is the least of my worries.
Thanks for the comment. When I am ready I will take them over to a neighbors house where I can have better space for testing. My urban environment is very limited in this regard!
The Beyma 's arrived and they are beautiful. I did some quick, rough work on one of my cabinets to get one of them playing and I am very excited to hear what will come from this system.
I decided to go the Neutrik Speakon connector direction but found the system a bit confusing. It seems that the standard is to use the 4 pole connector but with only 2 connections used, which seems odd. A 2 pole speakon plug will work with a 4 pole jack but not the other way around which makes perfect sense once you know.
Anyway I will have a jack on each speaker cabinet and 2x for each amp requiring 4 cables.
Parts list
4x NL4MPR (jack suitable for speaker cabinet mounting)
* 8x 3/16" Female Quick Disconnect
* Heat shrink tubing
4x NL4MP (2x jacks for each amp)
* 2x Penn-Elcom 2-up mounting plate
8x NL4FC (plugs)
14 awg wire
Time to break out the router and see if I can get the Beymas up and running.
.
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I decided to go the Neutrik Speakon connector direction but found the system a bit confusing. It seems that the standard is to use the 4 pole connector but with only 2 connections used, which seems odd. A 2 pole speakon plug will work with a 4 pole jack but not the other way around which makes perfect sense once you know.
Anyway I will have a jack on each speaker cabinet and 2x for each amp requiring 4 cables.
Parts list
4x NL4MPR (jack suitable for speaker cabinet mounting)
* 8x 3/16" Female Quick Disconnect
* Heat shrink tubing
4x NL4MP (2x jacks for each amp)
* 2x Penn-Elcom 2-up mounting plate
8x NL4FC (plugs)
14 awg wire
Time to break out the router and see if I can get the Beymas up and running.
.
[href^="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/external-search?"] {display:none !important;}
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How did it go?
Hi Alex,
did you finish your project?
I am asking since I did similar with the AS2.100d, only to find that the missing clock-locking between two modules made stereo use impossible. Constantly changing sound-field and listening fatigue.
Quite the contrary in mono use - there the module was fantastic to listen to.
I ended up with passive line level crossover which was way better.
Once you compare step by step passive filtering via capacitors, filtering on the computer via 32bit filter plugins in an audio workstation and the hypex filtering via the built-in DAC you quickly find the quality ranking along the way I ordered them here.
Even the 32bit filtering in the computer brings quality reductions that the Manger driver makes noticable in a way that is not nice to listen to. The simple line level passive filtering is very neutral in comparison.
Hi Alex,
did you finish your project?
I am asking since I did similar with the AS2.100d, only to find that the missing clock-locking between two modules made stereo use impossible. Constantly changing sound-field and listening fatigue.
Quite the contrary in mono use - there the module was fantastic to listen to.
I ended up with passive line level crossover which was way better.
Once you compare step by step passive filtering via capacitors, filtering on the computer via 32bit filter plugins in an audio workstation and the hypex filtering via the built-in DAC you quickly find the quality ranking along the way I ordered them here.
Even the 32bit filtering in the computer brings quality reductions that the Manger driver makes noticable in a way that is not nice to listen to. The simple line level passive filtering is very neutral in comparison.
My response is long overdue, to say the least. I really did not want to write a reply since I was having some struggles completing my project and did not want to criticize the amps before I had given them a fair chance. I did achieve results that I was happy with for the most part but the Hypex amps were a thorn in my side that I never fully resolved.
When everything was working right, I found the sound quality of the Hypex to be great but their other electronics were a problem. I did have many de-syncing problems when one channel would simply stop working. My workaround for that was to power up the amps every time I wanted to use them (and some times reset them when in use). The pain there was the amps were mounted on the back of the cabinets and reaching the switch was not ideal. Since you have to start one and then wait to start the second so they sync, that grew tiring pretty quickly. I eventually bought a delayed start plug, which would sequentially power up the amps with a delay between from when powering on the power strip everything was connected to. Not sure if I explained that well and I am not sure anyone will have this problem and care anyway
It is not at all fair to say in retrospect, but now with miniDSP, the Hypex software and crossover design interface were not great and I did not find it fun to experiment with the system. I did try several different crossovers and found them, with a little work, to all be acceptable. I am certain I never really hit the potential of the system but my wife and I did have many, many happy hours of listening.
Sadly one day silence. This was not recent and I have only recently taken a look at the system since I had some family situations that took my attention. Today, I do not know what happened but both amps were no longer accessible via USB and do not produce sound. The power supply is supplying power, so its a mystery and I could not stand beating my head against these amps and I disassembled them. I'm hoping the amps modules are still good and I'll try building something with them. Thanks to dtaylo3, on my thread over here I realized that might be a possibility.
So where I am at now: I created some new front panels for the bass cabinets since those were in rough shape having been retrofitted for multiple drivers over the years. I picked up the miniDSP SHD and connected my ACA amps.
I re-wired the Manger cabinets and here is where I am really worried. Manger's have 4 leads, 2 reds and 2 blacks. IIRC they are typically wired in parallel, combining the 2 blacks together and 2 reds together. But when I measure resistance 1 pair of leads gives me around 13.x ohms and the second is open! What is so weird is that both drivers have the same issue. I did a simple far-field in-room measurement and I see the response falling off heavily starting around 10 kHz. Worse is that there is some high-frequency distortion (?) that really does not sound good. Bass and midrange are pretty super, so it does seem to specifically be a Manger related problem.
I'm going to re-check everything this weekend since I am prone to making mistakes or overlooking simple things but I am not hopeful.
I've already started looking at the Beyma TPL-150 in case the Mangers are a lost cause. I've had these Manger drivers for 20 years IIRC and gotten so much out of them. They survived kids (of all ages) abusing them, a cat's curiosity, several moves, and uncountable configuration changes. They are/were my most favorite audio purchase.
Hi Alex,
Manger do not sell the drivers to DIYers anymore (neither to OEM builders, as far as I know), but they surely still offer the service of repairing them.
info@mangeraudio.com
Cost for rebuilding two used drivers I had bought in 2012 was around 550 Euros. I do not know what they charge now, but I guess it's still in that ballpark.
So, if you are in Europe, this might be an option. Anywhere else probably too much of a hassle with customs.
Hope you find the right option for you!
Achim
Manger do not sell the drivers to DIYers anymore (neither to OEM builders, as far as I know), but they surely still offer the service of repairing them.
info@mangeraudio.com
Cost for rebuilding two used drivers I had bought in 2012 was around 550 Euros. I do not know what they charge now, but I guess it's still in that ballpark.
So, if you are in Europe, this might be an option. Anywhere else probably too much of a hassle with customs.
Hope you find the right option for you!
Achim
I got Manger MSW around 20 years ago and built speakers paired with Accuton woofers (progressing through several version and now S280 which are quite good). I was initially quite happy with the Mangers but they have some design issues. I made some attempts to improve them Manger MSW & Moongel .
One of the drivers developed a similar problem. I talked to Daniela Mager at the HighEnd show 3 years ago and she confirmed that they are not selling the drivers anymore but will repair them.Also she expressed her opinion that the MSW are perfect and don't n need any further development! I am presently playing around to build my own bending wave driver and I think they measure and sound better so I never got them repaired.
I had some Hypex UCD modules but never liked their sound so I never pursued that more but built amps for the woofers using Anaview AMS0100 (likely not available anymore).
One of the drivers developed a similar problem. I talked to Daniela Mager at the HighEnd show 3 years ago and she confirmed that they are not selling the drivers anymore but will repair them.Also she expressed her opinion that the MSW are perfect and don't n need any further development! I am presently playing around to build my own bending wave driver and I think they measure and sound better so I never got them repaired.
I had some Hypex UCD modules but never liked their sound so I never pursued that more but built amps for the woofers using Anaview AMS0100 (likely not available anymore).
diyAchim and Monteverdi, thank you for the information. I am in the US and I'd have to seriously consider the expense of getting them repaired. Anyway, I have loved the Mangers but I'm also excited about the idea of a new project. Mainly I am disappointed since it was a long time to pull this system back together again and discovering this fault was a little a hard. Not to say I didn't get my money's worth from the Mangers!
The initial appeal of the Manger for me was the unique technology. Monteverdi have you posted about your bending wave driver project? I'm sure I don't have the time or skill to do something like that, but it would be interesting to see.
The initial appeal of the Manger for me was the unique technology. Monteverdi have you posted about your bending wave driver project? I'm sure I don't have the time or skill to do something like that, but it would be interesting to see.
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The picture makes the condition seem worse than it is, although it's not great...
One of the wires is detached from the front membrane. After touching it, it more fully lifted off but whatever adhesive or bonding that held the wire in place failed. Interestingly however this is the side that works! The side that does not work looks perfect. Well, not perfect, like a 20 years old driver that's had a hard life!
I measure electrical continuity on all 4 leads from the end of the lead to where the wire enters the membrane on the center front of the driver. So whatever has failed is in or behind the membrane. When I tap on the membrane I think I can hear a bit of a rattle. Like a fine wire, but honestly, I am probably imagining that. I'm actually a bit relieved that the fault is internal and not directly caused by me, other person or cat.
Anyway, I'm trying to find a reason to not order the Beyma TPL-150H right now... not trying that hard actually...
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