AS far as I know Mine are unmodified,
However the wires have different color codes compared to yours.
On mine I have blk that are common for ground but separate for bi-amping and gry feeds the tweeter from the crossover.
The bass panel has a balck wire for ground and a white wire that is feed from a common single inductor and single capacitor to ground (blk) second order lowpass crossover.
There is a feed to one set of VC on the top and a feed to the second one at the bottom and they are connected in series.
I just found the open loop and tomorrow I will hook up an amp and verify this bad loop and mark it.
And I will get some more pictures as well for you showing the two separate feeds for the two loops.
jer
However the wires have different color codes compared to yours.
On mine I have blk that are common for ground but separate for bi-amping and gry feeds the tweeter from the crossover.
The bass panel has a balck wire for ground and a white wire that is feed from a common single inductor and single capacitor to ground (blk) second order lowpass crossover.
There is a feed to one set of VC on the top and a feed to the second one at the bottom and they are connected in series.
I just found the open loop and tomorrow I will hook up an amp and verify this bad loop and mark it.
And I will get some more pictures as well for you showing the two separate feeds for the two loops.
jer
John,
Yep, the 8 ohm tweeter reading indicates an issue. It should be much lower. I would investigate the switch and the related components for the RLC network in series with the tweeter.
For an active crossover alignment (close to stock) on your Duetta Sigs the DCX2496 setup should be closer to about 500Hz with second-order (Linkwitz-Riley) slopes. Remember to keep track of relative polarity of your tweeter/woofer drive units. They're actually wired with reverse polarity (stock) inside the speaker, so if you maintain a red post to red post wiring on your speaker wiring it should be correct. Check it though.
Yes, a bunch of the DIY repair threads (including the excellent one from Olaf) were purposely removed from the Apogee forum. That was the final straw for me and I haven't been back since.
Cheers,
Dave.
Yep, the 8 ohm tweeter reading indicates an issue. It should be much lower. I would investigate the switch and the related components for the RLC network in series with the tweeter.
For an active crossover alignment (close to stock) on your Duetta Sigs the DCX2496 setup should be closer to about 500Hz with second-order (Linkwitz-Riley) slopes. Remember to keep track of relative polarity of your tweeter/woofer drive units. They're actually wired with reverse polarity (stock) inside the speaker, so if you maintain a red post to red post wiring on your speaker wiring it should be correct. Check it though.
Yes, a bunch of the DIY repair threads (including the excellent one from Olaf) were purposely removed from the Apogee forum. That was the final straw for me and I haven't been back since.
Cheers,
Dave.
Davey, the 8 ohm reading was on the bass panel...not tweeter...tweeter measures near perfect at 3 ohm.
Weird thing is I removed the cover, cleared the wires a bit by the passive crossover and I now get 4.2 ohms on bass driver...much better. I also toed them in a bit toward my listening position and the goofy null is gone...
I have the DCX2496 at 1k at 18db Butterworth. I was liking it a bit better lower than 1k, but worried about too much bass activity for the tweeter ribbons...500hz? Hmmm...sounds a bit low...I know the original passive is 1k with 6db Butterworth, which means its likely getting some activity at 500hz anyway...
I will play with the 500 hz.
For my active setup, red wire to red binding post, black wire to black binding post (woofer) and blue wire to red binding post, brown wire to black binding post (Mid/Tweeter)...
Weird thing is I removed the cover, cleared the wires a bit by the passive crossover and I now get 4.2 ohms on bass driver...much better. I also toed them in a bit toward my listening position and the goofy null is gone...
I have the DCX2496 at 1k at 18db Butterworth. I was liking it a bit better lower than 1k, but worried about too much bass activity for the tweeter ribbons...500hz? Hmmm...sounds a bit low...I know the original passive is 1k with 6db Butterworth, which means its likely getting some activity at 500hz anyway...
I will play with the 500 hz.
For my active setup, red wire to red binding post, black wire to black binding post (woofer) and blue wire to red binding post, brown wire to black binding post (Mid/Tweeter)...
John,
Ah, sorry about the tweeter mixup. Anyways, whatever problem you had sounds like it might be intermittent. Keep your eyes peeled for that problem.
The original stock crossover (electrical) is not 1khz. That's incorrect information that made its way onto the Apogee forums years back. The problem is confusing for folks because the acoustic and electrical crossover points are different.
If you want something close to the stock electrical alignment, try 500Hz with second-order slopes. That will yield a nice sound and you should not see much visible movement of the tweeter ribbon when playing normally. If you do, and you're not comfortable with it, then move the xover frequency up.
The tweeter also has an RLC notch filter in series and a shelving filter....you can either leave in place or remove and duplicate with your DCX2496.
The wiring color combination might not be consistent with various speakers. You need to verify to be sure.
The schematic is here:
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/projectstech/Duetta_Signature_crossover.pdf
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/projectstech/Duetta_Signature_crossover_equivalent_circuits.pdf
Cheers,
Dave.
Ah, sorry about the tweeter mixup. Anyways, whatever problem you had sounds like it might be intermittent. Keep your eyes peeled for that problem.
The original stock crossover (electrical) is not 1khz. That's incorrect information that made its way onto the Apogee forums years back. The problem is confusing for folks because the acoustic and electrical crossover points are different.
If you want something close to the stock electrical alignment, try 500Hz with second-order slopes. That will yield a nice sound and you should not see much visible movement of the tweeter ribbon when playing normally. If you do, and you're not comfortable with it, then move the xover frequency up.
The tweeter also has an RLC notch filter in series and a shelving filter....you can either leave in place or remove and duplicate with your DCX2496.
The wiring color combination might not be consistent with various speakers. You need to verify to be sure.
The schematic is here:
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/projectstech/Duetta_Signature_crossover.pdf
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/projectstech/Duetta_Signature_crossover_equivalent_circuits.pdf
Cheers,
Dave.
Very good !!!!
I am glad to hear that they are doing good.
When I had mine running I found that one of the positions on the switch took care of any sub frequency movements of the ribbon.
As evident by the addition of another series inductor in that position.
Also the angle of the panel can make a difference in your soundstage as well.
Make sure that the foam rests for the ribbon are still there, as the top foot or so is angled up from that point.
If it is gone the ribbon won't be kept centered in the magnets in the bottom half of the length of the element.
jer
I am glad to hear that they are doing good.
When I had mine running I found that one of the positions on the switch took care of any sub frequency movements of the ribbon.
As evident by the addition of another series inductor in that position.
Also the angle of the panel can make a difference in your soundstage as well.
Make sure that the foam rests for the ribbon are still there, as the top foot or so is angled up from that point.
If it is gone the ribbon won't be kept centered in the magnets in the bottom half of the length of the element.
jer
Yup, got the buzz....I just muted the tweeter section and there it is plain as day...right around 300 - 500 hz - most evident around female vocals.
The two wooden clamps on the edges - they also hold the tension of the ribbons? Removing one would disrupt the tension? There seems to be a few different screws holding the wooden planks, some for tension, others for securing to the base? Seems that the foam is only 1/16 wide between the ribbon and the wooden clamp...
I wish I could get to that thread on the DIY bass panel repair...
The two wooden clamps on the edges - they also hold the tension of the ribbons? Removing one would disrupt the tension? There seems to be a few different screws holding the wooden planks, some for tension, others for securing to the base? Seems that the foam is only 1/16 wide between the ribbon and the wooden clamp...
I wish I could get to that thread on the DIY bass panel repair...
No, the foam is wider than 1/16". You mean thickness??
If you want to really hear some buzzing use a signal generator to slowly sweep through the woofer range. Most likely, you wouldn't like what you hear.
As you're probably aware, the deteriorating foam is the problem, and not necessarily the woofer membrane. Ideally, the foam should be replaced, but that's impossible without woofer replacement. (A very expensive proposition since Graz changed his business model a number of years back.)
There were a number of band-aid fixes tried, but the one mentioned by Olaf seemed to be the most promising. His method was to use a syringe and impregnate the foam with a silicone solution/product. (However, I can't remember what it was.)
The method was relatively straightforward for the front side foam, but for the rear foam it was more difficult and required tilting the speaker to various angles and penetrating the perforations in the magnet assembly from the back to apply the silicone.
Cheers,
Dave.
If you want to really hear some buzzing use a signal generator to slowly sweep through the woofer range. Most likely, you wouldn't like what you hear.
As you're probably aware, the deteriorating foam is the problem, and not necessarily the woofer membrane. Ideally, the foam should be replaced, but that's impossible without woofer replacement. (A very expensive proposition since Graz changed his business model a number of years back.)
There were a number of band-aid fixes tried, but the one mentioned by Olaf seemed to be the most promising. His method was to use a syringe and impregnate the foam with a silicone solution/product. (However, I can't remember what it was.)
The method was relatively straightforward for the front side foam, but for the rear foam it was more difficult and required tilting the speaker to various angles and penetrating the perforations in the magnet assembly from the back to apply the silicone.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Yes, it could....even if you released the tension manually beforehand. You wouldn't gain much/anything though, since you still can't (easily) get to the foam on the underside of the membranes.
Be careful whatever you do. The speakers are not as robust as they might seem. Hairline cracks of the membrane are easy to generate (even on the outer perimeter of the clamps.) Twisting/flexing of the frame should be avoided.
Cheers,
Dave.
Be careful whatever you do. The speakers are not as robust as they might seem. Hairline cracks of the membrane are easy to generate (even on the outer perimeter of the clamps.) Twisting/flexing of the frame should be avoided.
Cheers,
Dave.
They might over time.
I tried to take take them off and I few of them (the top ones) are still loose since 2000 from when I repaired it.
I couldn't seem to remove them completely for fear of ruining the diaphragm and completely loosing the tension.
As the diaphragm has been glued down as well.
Even the close up pictures that I do have do not show the mounting system in complete detail.
The are some other deeper holes with screws or cams or something in them that appear to be maybe the tensioning adjustment but I have not messed with them and I haven't seen in pictures as to if they are there or what they look like.
I read once that there are tensioning adjustments though.
I also have yet to see what and where this foam is that every one say's that it rots away causing the bass panels to rattle.
Some have said that it is on the back side of the diaphragm and can be replaced but there is no way how to even get in to the backside.
Unless I cut the MDF and lift the very heavy magnet plate out as a last resort.
The tensioning on mine has been relaxed along the vertical length quite a bit in some spots and it is these spots and the reason I think that is why mine rattle.
When I had to repair it, I tried but couldn't even remove the side sandwiching bars after I had removed all of the screws.
So I was lucky enough after analyzing it for a while to find the open loop with my VOM and a piece of wire confirmed that when it started to play again.
I wish I had the room to work on them but I don't at this moment.
If I can't get them to sound right I am going to just rebuild the bass panel Epsilon style with a rubber band surround on the perimeter of the diaphragm.
And/or sell them as ESL's are my thing now, But I would like to hear them play again for sure!!
jer
I tried to take take them off and I few of them (the top ones) are still loose since 2000 from when I repaired it.
I couldn't seem to remove them completely for fear of ruining the diaphragm and completely loosing the tension.
As the diaphragm has been glued down as well.
Even the close up pictures that I do have do not show the mounting system in complete detail.
The are some other deeper holes with screws or cams or something in them that appear to be maybe the tensioning adjustment but I have not messed with them and I haven't seen in pictures as to if they are there or what they look like.
I read once that there are tensioning adjustments though.
I also have yet to see what and where this foam is that every one say's that it rots away causing the bass panels to rattle.
Some have said that it is on the back side of the diaphragm and can be replaced but there is no way how to even get in to the backside.
Unless I cut the MDF and lift the very heavy magnet plate out as a last resort.
The tensioning on mine has been relaxed along the vertical length quite a bit in some spots and it is these spots and the reason I think that is why mine rattle.
When I had to repair it, I tried but couldn't even remove the side sandwiching bars after I had removed all of the screws.
So I was lucky enough after analyzing it for a while to find the open loop with my VOM and a piece of wire confirmed that when it started to play again.
I wish I had the room to work on them but I don't at this moment.
If I can't get them to sound right I am going to just rebuild the bass panel Epsilon style with a rubber band surround on the perimeter of the diaphragm.
And/or sell them as ESL's are my thing now, But I would like to hear them play again for sure!!
jer
It Sucks....know other way of saying it!
From this one mans O-pine...
One of the Best Speaker on the Planet...I think it just the wate of the Magnets..an the press-board..if there moved an in time thay well buzz..an then you only hear the buzz on some things...but then you hear it all the time...tobad..only the stages i have had have never buzzed i know thay can...but out of 5 pr one tweeter was lost ...an i think it was me... i changed the wires that run up the side of the tweeters an could never get the right...but got a new pr of tweeter from Jason..in the 90s...for like $80. i was a dealer at the time.....good luck John .. great sound when the work!
From this one mans O-pine...
One of the Best Speaker on the Planet...I think it just the wate of the Magnets..an the press-board..if there moved an in time thay well buzz..an then you only hear the buzz on some things...but then you hear it all the time...tobad..only the stages i have had have never buzzed i know thay can...but out of 5 pr one tweeter was lost ...an i think it was me... i changed the wires that run up the side of the tweeters an could never get the right...but got a new pr of tweeter from Jason..in the 90s...for like $80. i was a dealer at the time.....good luck John .. great sound when the work!
Hi,
since John65b promised me to change his signature, I'll write down what I did succesfully with my Apogees
I described my repair process in the older Apogee forum.
Unfortunately the thread is gone.
To bad I can't find a copy, even on my harddiscs.
Fact is, my Apogee Signatures had the buzz, it's the foil hitting the inner frame, giving this Kazoo like sound on certain frequencies. Not nice and it spoils the listening pleasure very much.
I managed to get rid of this distortion and mine still play nice. So I can say it's a log-time fix.
It's not expansive, but takes some time, patience and precaution (the foil is easily destroyed).
Anyway, here's what I did:
Main part is the silicone, it's not that stuff, you use in your kitchen or bathroom, it's rather very soft and is mixed from 2 components.
You'll need this:
http://www.amazon.de/Formenbau-Mode...QE4W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1363443966&sr=8-3
Then you need this:
You'll need more than one syringe, because once the silicone is dried, you can throw it away.
Than you need silicone tubes, that you attach to the top of the syringe.
It should be very soft, because you'll sometimes slightly touch the membrane when you apply the silicone.
The point is to inject the mixture slowly into the gap between the foil and the frame. You have to push slowly. The silicone mixture feels like this golden honey. It flows into the rotten foam and dries there, keeping its elasticity.
For that, the speaker has to lie on the floor, so the gap (Foil <-> Frame) is paralleled with the floor.
You start on one side pushing the syringe and move slowly to the other side.
You have to apply the mixture along the entire gap.
Let it dry (I forget how long, but before you start, you should make a test mixture, to get a feeling for the stuff, than you'll see what the drying time is)
I think it should be OK after 2-3 hours.
If it's dried, you repeat the the same for the opposite gap; turn the speaker arround and push the silicone into the gap.
One tip: The gap is open at both sides, close it somehow, so the silicone won't flow out of the gap to your floor.
What I described, is for the front side of the speakers. The back side is more tricky to do 'cause it's not possible to do it that way.
I'll make a break now.
Later this evening, I'll continue to post....
Olaf
since John65b promised me to change his signature, I'll write down what I did succesfully with my Apogees
I described my repair process in the older Apogee forum.
Unfortunately the thread is gone.
To bad I can't find a copy, even on my harddiscs.
Fact is, my Apogee Signatures had the buzz, it's the foil hitting the inner frame, giving this Kazoo like sound on certain frequencies. Not nice and it spoils the listening pleasure very much.
I managed to get rid of this distortion and mine still play nice. So I can say it's a log-time fix.
It's not expansive, but takes some time, patience and precaution (the foil is easily destroyed).
Anyway, here's what I did:
Main part is the silicone, it's not that stuff, you use in your kitchen or bathroom, it's rather very soft and is mixed from 2 components.
You'll need this:
http://www.amazon.de/Formenbau-Mode...QE4W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1363443966&sr=8-3
Then you need this:
You'll need more than one syringe, because once the silicone is dried, you can throw it away.
Than you need silicone tubes, that you attach to the top of the syringe.
It should be very soft, because you'll sometimes slightly touch the membrane when you apply the silicone.
The point is to inject the mixture slowly into the gap between the foil and the frame. You have to push slowly. The silicone mixture feels like this golden honey. It flows into the rotten foam and dries there, keeping its elasticity.
For that, the speaker has to lie on the floor, so the gap (Foil <-> Frame) is paralleled with the floor.
You start on one side pushing the syringe and move slowly to the other side.
You have to apply the mixture along the entire gap.
Let it dry (I forget how long, but before you start, you should make a test mixture, to get a feeling for the stuff, than you'll see what the drying time is)
I think it should be OK after 2-3 hours.
If it's dried, you repeat the the same for the opposite gap; turn the speaker arround and push the silicone into the gap.
One tip: The gap is open at both sides, close it somehow, so the silicone won't flow out of the gap to your floor.
What I described, is for the front side of the speakers. The back side is more tricky to do 'cause it's not possible to do it that way.
I'll make a break now.
Later this evening, I'll continue to post....
Olaf
Viscous like Honey? It will flow, correct? You do all four gaps (top/bottom/sides?)
I have found a US contact for that company - Zhermack -
They are in NJ, and have sent them an email regarding their HT 33 Transparent (30 ShA) Silicone RTV. Yours indicates 33 ShA...is there a difference?
I appreciate the help, and will be ordering ASAP...
Also, If I put the speaker gap perpendicular to the floor (speaker standing on edge, gap down), is there a chance the silicone will flow and fill both sides of the gap from a front side injection, so you won't have to bother with the more difficult back side?
Is your syringe tip a needle or small hose?
I have found a US contact for that company - Zhermack -
They are in NJ, and have sent them an email regarding their HT 33 Transparent (30 ShA) Silicone RTV. Yours indicates 33 ShA...is there a difference?
I appreciate the help, and will be ordering ASAP...
Also, If I put the speaker gap perpendicular to the floor (speaker standing on edge, gap down), is there a chance the silicone will flow and fill both sides of the gap from a front side injection, so you won't have to bother with the more difficult back side?
Is your syringe tip a needle or small hose?
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A one component flowable silicone can be found at the hardware store.
I have used this stuff repair speaker surrounds before and it runs like honey does.
It is mainly used has a windshield repair sealant for leaky windshield seals.
The stuff I have is from VersaChem and it is Part No.75009
Maybe something like this would work.
I had thought about some thing like this before and wondered if it would work.
As ESL's don't need any foam and are solid mounted to the frames.
I can't find any traces of foam in my speakers front or back.
Just the ones that the ribbons rested was all that was left when I got them back in 2010.
When I repaired them in 2000 there was no foam on the front of the bass panels then either but I never saw if there are ones in the back because I couldn't see too good through the black fabric covering and they weren't rattling at the time.
Thanks for the tip!!!!
jer
P.S. I found the foam.
it is only about a 1/4" wide strip that is sandwiched between the blocks and the diaphragm and has a bit of material cut off of the length of the block to accommodate the 1/16" thickness of the foam.
Nice thought of an idea but bad design.
I have used this stuff repair speaker surrounds before and it runs like honey does.
It is mainly used has a windshield repair sealant for leaky windshield seals.
The stuff I have is from VersaChem and it is Part No.75009
Maybe something like this would work.
I had thought about some thing like this before and wondered if it would work.
As ESL's don't need any foam and are solid mounted to the frames.
I can't find any traces of foam in my speakers front or back.
Just the ones that the ribbons rested was all that was left when I got them back in 2010.
When I repaired them in 2000 there was no foam on the front of the bass panels then either but I never saw if there are ones in the back because I couldn't see too good through the black fabric covering and they weren't rattling at the time.
Thanks for the tip!!!!
jer
P.S. I found the foam.
it is only about a 1/4" wide strip that is sandwiched between the blocks and the diaphragm and has a bit of material cut off of the length of the block to accommodate the 1/16" thickness of the foam.
Nice thought of an idea but bad design.
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Yep, you can't get to the backside from the frontside.
Gerald,
If you don't see any foam, you're not looking close enough. It's not very thick, but it's installed in a rabbet on all of the perimeter pieces on both front and back.
Olaf,
Thanks for posting the information. Much appreciated. They won't delete it here.
Cheers,
Dave.
Gerald,
If you don't see any foam, you're not looking close enough. It's not very thick, but it's installed in a rabbet on all of the perimeter pieces on both front and back.
Olaf,
Thanks for posting the information. Much appreciated. They won't delete it here.
Cheers,
Dave.