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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
Electrostats vs conventional drivers
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Old 12th November 2004, 12:08 PM   #41
Cobra2 is online now Cobra2  Norway
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Electrostats vs conventional drivers Electrostats vs conventional drivers
Default Planars

I used to love my (ex) Apogee Duetta planars, and the superb response from low volume-settings.
But they were not very eficcient (or loud) with 250W trown at them...they were a tough load, even for a GOOD amp...

If they only were DIVA's, my spouse would have gone instead...

Arne K
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Old 12th November 2004, 02:53 PM   #42
hilbren is offline hilbren  Netherlands
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I use a pioneer vsx-d510 receiver on my homebuild esl's

about the coupling with a capacitor?
the capacitor will only block the ultra low frequenties, but that's not the problem, its the high frequenties that ask al lot of energy.
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Old 2nd December 2004, 09:12 PM   #43
michaelpage26 is offline michaelpage26  Greece
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Default Electrostats and Dyamics

I have used the original Quad, Acoustat 2+2, and Martin Logan CLS as midrange reference transducers over the past 27 years. I like their lack of cabinet resonance and single-driver coherence; however, they all exhibit tremendous dynamic compression from a mechanical standpoint. At Cal Tech, we used a laser interferometry setup to measure the dynamic range as referenced to excursion potential vs. voltage. As the electrostatic diaphragms are stretched very tightly and have no elastic edge surround, they have a finite limitation on excursion potential, no matter how much more voltage you input. Initially, the diaphragm will move on a 1:1 scale, but rapidly, the excursion does not follow the input voltage, resulting in a very high degree of compression of the signal. This is the source of "lack" of dynamic range that most listeners pick up on. Most cone systems do not compress until very high volume levels are reached.

Albert Von Schweikert

According to this theory the electrostats will compress the dynamic shifts in the lowest octaves (<100Hz) due to excursion limits....

Why Steve M states the opposite?
(refering to ESL III and generally electrostats being able to reproduce dynamic shifts in an excellent way)

Thanks in advance

Michael
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Old 2nd December 2004, 09:58 PM   #44
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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Iīve listened to ESL63 with Gradient subs and that was really nice, to short to really fall in love though.

Then Iīve listened to MLīs four times, different models, different rooms and they have never managed to put an ipression on me.. I donīt get it.

They sound hard, flat and unnatural to me. Sure, I hear something good, some kind of resolution but kind of synthetic at the same time.

You guys who swear by e-stats, how do you feel about SLīs dipoles?

Those I like big time.

/Peter
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Old 6th December 2004, 06:44 AM   #45
tinmanrrtx is offline tinmanrrtx  United States
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ESL speaker sounds more coherence to me due to possible of just one cross over point. In dynamic speaker design, the cross-over filter can be fairly complex (2 or 3 cross over points) and can cause phase variation hence (to me) they don't sound as clean or clear comparing to ESL. In addition, the dynamic speaker also uses different drivers comparing to ESL with just a single membrane so the sound ESL produces will have the advantage.

The other side benefit is that the ESL panel does not have a box which will eliminate another interactive element of the system.

The key disadvantage of ESL speaker is that they don't play very loud with low distortion compare to the best of the dynamic speaker. However, in the same price point (less then 6K USD), I will lean toward ESL speakers over dynamic speakers but of course we should expect to find areas one is better than the others.

The bottom line is that the person pays for the products so it is his/her choice to pick whichever sounds better to purchase. Happy listening.
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Old 6th December 2004, 10:03 AM   #46
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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Tinmanrtx;

"In addition, the dynamic speaker also uses different drivers comparing to ESL with just a single membrane so the sound ESL produces will have the advantage.

The other side benefit is that the ESL panel does not have a box which will eliminate another interactive element of the system."

Using one single membrane is IMO one big drawback with ESLīs, itīs what make them problematic in the high and low frequencies.

Also not only ESLīs have the (possibly) benefit of being boxless, there are boxless dynamic dipoles as well and IMO these compare very "favourably" to ESLīs.

All IMHO of coure.

/Peter
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Old 6th December 2004, 10:32 AM   #47
Vikash is offline Vikash  United Kingdom
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I agree. The fact that ESL's are restricted in membrane materials is a limitation not an advantage. Look at the huge variety and research into material sciences used for cone diaphrams.

I also believe that mating the ESL panel with a dynamic sub is more difficult, and there are some high end ESL's which use a ribbon tweeter too - so still some potential xover points and mating issues to deal with.

Saying that I've only heard two different ESL's, both ML's, both jaw dropping experiences at their transient capabilities on first audition, but not so inspiring in other areas.
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Old 6th December 2004, 09:06 PM   #48
michaelpage26 is offline michaelpage26  Greece
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Yeah but no one of the cone materials can be as light as 3g of the whole diaphragm in an ESL panel of 120x50cm 3.8 micron.

Also there aren't any crossovers and there are some ESLs in order to be able to reproduce highs in a good way have separated panels for highs witout x-overs or eq.>... ER-Audio ESL III kit, Quad 989...
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Old 6th December 2004, 09:19 PM   #49
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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Weight of the moving mass of the transducer is nothing that define high performance in itself. Bandwith, decay, dynamic range and distortion is what it is about and I have not seen anything that indicates that ESLīs would be better in any of these areas.

I would love to learn more though if I have missed something.

/Peter
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Old 7th December 2004, 12:03 AM   #50
sasha is offline sasha  Canada
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Actually Pan,
Mass of the moving element (driver cone or dome)is probably single most limiting factor of the sound transducers.
Bandwidth is limited on the low freq. with size of the moving
element and on the high frq. with mass of the moving element. That is why we have big bass drivers and small tweeters.
Regarding decay time, e-stats have advantage over
dynamic drivers because of their low mass and large area, air damping is enormous so decay time is minimal.
And we all know decay will produce distortions. This kind of "decay distortions" will be most noticeable with transients.
E-stats have low freq. reproduction limitations. That is why
dynamic is limited if you try to push them to work in this area. Simple solution is use of dynamic driver for bass reproduction.
Crossover point should be 300-500Hz and if so integration between e-stat and woofer is very good.
This way crossover point is far from critical freq. 2k-3k
and also resonant freq. of the e-stat. is no problem any more. Full range e-stat. is not necessary.
Narrow dispersion of the e-stats is good and bad thing. Good for less reflections of the walls and bad if you have more than one listener.
Another thing about e-stats, You have to live with them for
some time to fully appreciate sound. Listening in a audio store will not give you real picture. You need time to "decontaminate" from what ever you are used to listen before.
It is like cutting on spices and too much salt in your food to discover
real taste. Good steak does not need ketchup.
Bottom line is: we are diy-ers and to build dynamic system you need to spent ten times more money to get similar sound quality.

Best regards to all.
Sasha.
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