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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
Electrostats vs conventional drivers
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Old 22nd February 2019, 01:29 AM   #191
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
You can't hear directivity. There is no perceptual experience called "directivity" as the term is applied to speakers.

You can experience things like tone colour, Doppler, HD, echo, beats, missing fundamental, and transient goodness. In so far as you get better SQ from a speaker with better directivity, some other parameter of sound is mediating it.

If the mediation is just FR in situ, easy enough to address that with EQ.

B.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 22nd February 2019 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 02:35 AM   #192
kgrlee is offline kgrlee
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
You can't hear directivity. There is no perceptual experience called "directivity" as the term is applied to speakers.

You can experience things like tone colour, Doppler, HD, echo, beats, missing fundamental, and transient goodness.
Thank you Ben for your pedantry. I'm sure it advances this discussion though I'm not sure how. And your point is ?

As we are playing pedant, could you explain 'transient goodness' and how it is 'experienced'? Is it somehow related to my 'audible'?
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Old 22nd February 2019, 03:19 AM   #193
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Thank you Ben for your pedantry. I'm sure it advances this discussion though I'm not sure how....is it somehow related to my 'audible'?
Instead of my highfalutin' pedant's word "hear" which as you abrasively imply is within the grasp only of persons with graduate degrees in philosophy, please substitute the common parlance everyday familiar word, "audible".

There.... now aren't you happy?

B.

Footnote: let's say you are showing off your HiFi to a friend and they said, "Gosh, can you turn down the directivity, it really is too much." What would you do? Perhaps you would start by asking them what the heck they were talking about.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 22nd February 2019 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:04 AM   #194
kgrlee is offline kgrlee
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Instead of my highfalutin' pedant's word "hear" which as you abrasively imply is within the grasp only of persons with graduate degrees in philosophy, please substitute the common parlance everyday familiar word, "audible".

There.... now aren't you happy?

Footnote: let's say you are showing off your HiFi to a friend and they said, "Gosh, can you turn down the directivity, it really is too much." What would you do? Perhaps you would start by asking them what the heck they were talking about.
Thanks for this Ben.

Could you please elaborate on your "transient goodness"?

This is not a trick question. As an ex DBLT guru, understanding terms that Golden Pinnae (and unwashed masses) may use to describe what they hear is vital as we are using DBLTs as tools to design better speakers.

I suppose I should repeat my question about your point but I think it has been answered.

Last edited by kgrlee; 22nd February 2019 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 04:48 PM   #195
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by golfnut View Post
wrong Kellog - you're thinking of John Harvey and his brother = corn flakes, but no rice crispies…
Yeeeeah…I shoulda listened to my wife when she tells me not to attempt humor in public because no matter the joke, I’ll likely screw it up. I started a post to correct kgrlee on Edward Kellog vs the cornflakes Kellog but then thought he must be joking and with the name “Rice” sitting right there…
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:00 PM   #196
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
... but Chester did get a couple of later patents on ESLs
Can you point to any of them? Or recall what aspects they addressed?
The only other significant transducer related patent of his I was aware of was the 1929 one on adding shorting rings in the gap to reduce voice coil inductance effects.

Quote:
I think I've got some PAFplots (not KEFplots. Their CDS are da present day 'waterfalls') of ESL63 done circa 1980 when only KEF & ourselves could do such hi-falutin stuff.
What does PAF stand for?
Most measurement software today uses burst decay or wavelet analysis to provide improved time-vs-frequency resolution tradeoffs.

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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
…I haven't forgotten this. I'm trying to remember details…
Your query actually hits at this very question. More to come
No rush, looking forward to it.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:20 PM   #197
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
You can't hear directivity. There is no perceptual experience called "directivity" as the term is applied to speakers…If the mediation is just FR in situ, easy enough to address that with EQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Footnote: let's say you are showing off your HiFi to a friend and they said, "Gosh, can you turn down the directivity, it really is too much." What would you do?
We’ve covered this topic several times in other threads so I’ll try to keep response brief.
There are at least 2 issues covered under the umbrella term of directivity.

The first is pretty much ESL specific, and that is the extreme narrowing of directivity in the upper octaves with large uniformly driven flat panels. The result is the “head in a vise” sensation of tonal and image shifts with minor adjustments of posture or head tilting. When asked to turn directivity down, I pause and re-engage the segmentation on my ESL line source. Have yet to have somebody want to keep listening to 15” wide ESLs uniformly driven when the broader-smoother polar response from segmentation can be switched back to.

The second is what we have been talking about here, the relationship between power response and on-axis response and how it affects ambient or time-averaged response compared to first-arrival response. This is only relevant when listening in rooms. I know you feel all that is required is to plop most any speaker down and EQ at the listening seat for desired tonal balance or time-averaged house curve. But, you can’t EQ power response separate from on-axis. So at best, you are coming up with a best compromise of first arrival and ambient sound which our brain processes differently. Manipulating the directivity provides a lever to improve this compromise, as does room treatment.

You might explore a “reductio ad absurdum” experiment (thought or real) of your comment that there is no perceptual experience of this aspect of directivity(relationship between power response and on-axis response). Sit in your listening chair with time-averaged FR adjusted via EQ to your desired house curve. Enjoy a few of your favorite tracks. Now get up and point your left speaker at the back left corner and the right speaker to midway along the right wall(or left wall, or directly at the listener). Sit back down and EQ for the same house curve. Feel free to EQ each speaker separately or as a stereo pair. Then re-listen to those same tracks. Pause again to randomly shift speaker angles and repeat EQ and listening. All equally enjoyable experience?
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Old 22nd February 2019, 07:09 PM   #198
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
…That is almost exactly what I did with my ESELs ... apart from the 2 8ves response (could just achieve 1 8ve) and guess what? .... they sound absolutely awesome with no audible transition between the branches
Are you talking about your hybrid configuration of an ESL line source crossing to a line array of dipole woofers?
This certainly was the most seemless sounding hybrid configuration I have experienced for line source ESLs crossed in the 500Hz – 150Hz range.
purist esl MK2 - calvins-audio-pages
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File Type: png purist_ESL_MK2.png (298.8 KB, 83 views)

Last edited by bolserst; 22nd February 2019 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 07:19 PM   #199
kgrlee is offline kgrlee
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Originally Posted by bolserst View Post
Can you point to any of them? Or recall what aspects they addressed?
The only other significant transducer related patent of his I was aware of was the 1929 one on adding shorting rings in the gap to reduce voice coil inductance effects.
Sheesh! You & golfnut are really digging into my senile memories. In case it isn't obvious, I'm a real beach bum. Might have been in Bell Systems Tech. Journ. rather than a patent.

Quote:
What does PAF stand for?
Most measurement software today uses burst decay or wavelet analysis to provide improved time-vs-frequency resolution tradeoffs.
Peter Arthur Fryer AES E-Library >> Analogue Loudspeaker Measurement with -3-D- Display
It was based on BBC work by Shorter & Harwood in the early 70s on Delayed Resonances though that had 'time' resolution rather than 'cycles' which was Peter's slant. Tone burst based. You need an anechoic cos the improved LF resolution. To get the anechoic 'good' enough, we had to remove the steel mesh floor which didn't endear us to da speaker designers.

This Millenium, I think Don Keele has fancy wavelet maths analysing this 'method'. I shud lern 2 reed en rite cos his papers are on his website .. specially wid da pedants on this forum

For us, PAFplots were 'cycle' resolution. KEFplots da 'waterfall's in 21st century hi-falutin reviews. There were even JAPplots from a Japanese Co. which presented KEF-like data but without more resolution.

Last edited by kgrlee; 22nd February 2019 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 09:34 PM   #200
kgrlee is offline kgrlee
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Originally Posted by bolserst View Post
Most measurement software today uses burst decay or wavelet analysis to provide improved time-vs-frequency resolution tradeoffs.
Would appreciate links to papers / software / hardware etc doing this for real in da 21st century.
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