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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
Electrostats vs conventional drivers
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:37 AM   #131
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
Cone dipole enthusiasts are almost as intolerable bores as us ESL enthusiasts. Can we all be hard of hearing?

tacit-tactix seems to have seen a diagram in an early chapter of an acoustics textbook. So the poster has concluded that rear waves TOTALLY annihilate the front wave when they meet out of synch. The later chapters might go into how sound from the back bounces around and so its hard to say how much annihilation takes place.

Nobody denies that waves do conflict some, just as the poster says. But then few are building ESL panels targeting bands where that would be a big issue.

While I am no fan of single-cone-driver speakers, some folks seem to like something about their sound and value it above certain other missing virtues. Likewise, the dipole and ESL crowd for our undying love for the features of our speakers.

B.
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:39 AM   #132
tacit_tactix is offline tacit_tactix  Canada
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I actually studied Acoustic MSC at salford, but thanks for your attitude. I dont undestand why people get so snippy in these forums, and attack eachother on a personal level. its dissapointing.
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:41 AM   #133
tacit_tactix is offline tacit_tactix  Canada
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"The explanation for the bass suck-out often heard in ESLs has a more complicated explanation than given by Tacit Tactix, and has nothing to do with the leakage of air from front to back. "

Seems like a pretty specific direct statement that there is no dipole phase cancellation causing the lack of low end to me. And I have shown that it is actually a big part of it, and so has Roger Sanders in his book which I linked. And this is a basic concept anyway.

Maybe try reading more than the first few sentences of the thread ?

In any case, thanks for your input everyone.
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:42 AM   #134
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Electrostats vs conventional drivers
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacit_tactix View Post
I actually studied Acoustic MSC at salford, but thanks for your attitude. I dont undestand why people get so snippy in these forums, and attack eachother on a personal level. its dissapointing.
I gather you didn't like that I described your posted statements about acoustics as rudimentary and hidebound to a flawed grasp of real-world room behaviour.

But I will stick with that assessment.... as would the late and great Linkwitz.

B.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 10th February 2019 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:46 AM   #135
tacit_tactix is offline tacit_tactix  Canada
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this conversation is about ESL , dipoles, phase cancelation, and I actually did describe a little bit of room acoustics.

Please say something useful, specific, or dont make personal comments about people knowledge, or understanding unless you are being constructive. Otherwise why are you here?
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:50 AM   #136
tacit_tactix is offline tacit_tactix  Canada
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So many people read a brochure, and talk down to people in forums like they know so much. Another member made a comment about my statement, I defended it in depth, provided references, and explained in plain terms my understanding. That is a lot more than I can say about your post.

What is rudimentary about about my understanding of acoustics? Because from what I can see I have defended the claim without fail. Please respond and enlighten me.
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Old 10th February 2019, 12:51 AM   #137
tacit_tactix is offline tacit_tactix  Canada
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clearly the conversation is not even about room behaviour, so you are really lost
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Old 10th February 2019, 05:12 AM   #138
golfnut is offline golfnut  New Zealand
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Hi Tacit Tactix
I'm sorry if you found my posts offensive, that was not my intention.

Obviously it depends on the extent of your acoustics training, but I would be very surprised if there was any depth to any university paper that might mention ESLs.

ESLs are very different from conventional drivers, they are dipoles rather than monopoles, pressure sources rather than volume velocity sources, and planar sources rather than point sources. The size and cost of ESL means that there has been very little serious science developed around ESLs. What little has been established is very, very different from that now well established lore for conventional drivers. Indeed there remain a couple of huge gaps, things not discussed in any paper or book anywhere.

I started my ESL project more than 10 years ago, and with help from a few people on this site I was able to design and build a sucessful ESL. Beforehand, I did a lot of homework reading books, papers, etc on ESLs. In fact there is very little written about ESLs of any substance, the book by Hunt, the JAES paper by Walker, and the Chapter by Baxandall were pretty much the limit of helpful material. The books by Wagner and Sanders are very limited and occasionally wrong - also I am a professional physicist, so I expect to see equations in support of claims. There is also a lot of folklore about ESL that is wrong, much of it I suspect arises from experiences with overly simple DIY projects.

In the process of building my ESL, I collected a long list of things that I did not understand or did not make sense. A DIYaudio colleague has helped me with some of these things, and we have been working our way through the rest - I've mostly worked on the theory while my colleague, who also has a very good grasp on the maths, works on the measurements to test our mathematical models. We have now published two papers covering two of the five big gaps, and we are currently working on a third. You'll not find any of that material in textbooks, yet. If you send a pm I will be happy to forward copies.

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Old 10th February 2019, 06:41 AM   #139
MarcelvdG is online now MarcelvdG  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnut View Post
Read the Baxandall chapter. The effect you speak of gives the membrane mass at low frequencies (via the radiation impedance), which in turn causes the membrane resonance (mass on a spring)- this is the low frequency limit of an ESL. Above this frequency, the SPL is nominally constant with frequency. At frequencies much above the resonance, the membrane is essentially massless.

Remember too that ESLs are a pressure source, not a volume-velocity source like conventional divers - the behaviour is quite different.
According to Walker's equation, in the far field, for frequencies above resonance and below the point where membrane mass causes treble loss, SPL is constant with frequency under constant current drive. That means that voltage has to increase with 20 dB/decade with decreasing frequency. As almost no-one seems to realize that, it is hardly surprising that many ESLs have insufficient bass.

Mind you, you are in the far field when the distance to the loudspeaker is great compared to lamda/(2 pi) and the path length differences from different parts of the loudspeaker to your ears are much smaller than a wavelength. For high audio frequencies and practical listening distances, that last condition can only be met with segmented stators and some sort of crossover. (The damped transmission line in the ESL-63 is actually a sort of crossover; at high frequencies, only the centre of the ESL-63 makes sound.)

See Elektrostatic Loudspeakers

Last edited by MarcelvdG; 10th February 2019 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 10th February 2019, 06:47 AM   #140
kazap is offline kazap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnut View Post
......pressure sources rather than volume velocity sources..

that looks fascinating. I wonder if you would mind sharing a few words to help me grasp the concept please?

Last edited by kazap; 10th February 2019 at 07:04 AM.
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