Full range ESL vs ESL + sub

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Hi there,

I recently listened to a pair of ESL from Final, the 600i. I have to say I was very impressed, I never listened to electrostats and I was very pleased with the uncolored sound, the transparency and the fact That I was listening to music and not to Speakers. However, I noticed also that they were missing some body in the midbass and ofcourse there was not much happening below 60Hz or so?. Anyway, it got me thinking. What would be better, a full range electrostat that runs to 50-40 Hz, like e.g. a quad or the Final 1000i or.....a smaller electrostat that runs to say 150Hz and than crosses to a suitable subwoofer, this would add body and ofcourse deeper bass.

curious what you guys prefer.

cheers,

Jacob
 
The only way to get deep bass from an ESL is to make it really huge, or put your ear right up to the driver. Neither is very practical (except headphones), so an ESL combined with a more "conventional" woofer is the best way to go. Use an active crossover and biamp.

I_F
 
Hi,

what would be better?
well, I say it depends ;-)

Advantages FR-ESL:
- just one way, crossoverless Fullrange
- consistent distribution character through the whole spectrum

Diadvantages:
- size and need of space
- efficiency
- distortion
- dynamics
- most Full rangers need some sort of equalization circuitry
- can be difficult to find a matching amp

Advantages of Hybrid-ESLs:
- comparatively small
- high efficiency
- low distortion
- increased dynamics
- easier to drive
- consistent distribution character through the whole spectrum possible
Disadvantages:
- difficulty to integrate bass and ESL seamlessly (lead to the myth of Hybrids beeing inferior to FRs) but not impossible
- need of crossover and most often additional equing.

So wheigh the pros and cons as You wish and You see what suits Your needs better.

To my taste and opinion a well executed Hybrid beats a FR on every field.

Calvin
 
Hi guys,

thanks for the replies! Calvin, thanks for the comprehensive answer! When you are talking about hybrids I assume you also consider a ESL that goes down to 150Hz coupled with a subwoofer a hybrid? (so a 2.1 system basically) in way this is more or less an in between option between a true hybrid (being a esl and woofer in one speaker, where crossover is mostly around 300Hz I think) and a true full range.

cheers,

Jacob
 
I have been battling the same question for the last two weeks, but have finally decided to go for the hybrid solution. As Calvin said, even a full range ESL will profit from a dynamic (sub)woofer.

In his book "ESL Design Cookbook" Sanders claims that crossovers below 600Hz are not noticeable. So I said to myself, WTH, if a subwoofer is beneficial anyhow, then just accept that there will be a dynamic part and use that to the full, reducing the size of the ESL in the process. (Not to mention easing some other ESL design parameters)
 
I am using a hibryd ESL for some time now.

It is a Quad ESL 57 panel with a 10" low end driver (dipole).
I have mounted them in a baffle of 6cm thick.

The ESL panel has a 24db drop at 250 hz. (it own passiv filter).
I made a active filter with dipole correction for the low driver.

The sound of this system is amazing.
The two systems blend in perfect!

The only thing i didn't think of was the radiation pattern.
The ESL panel has A perfect 8 radiation.
The dipole woofer is more a rond radiation.

It would be better to use a H-frame with an ESL panel.
But you have to watch out for the dipole resonans frequencie.
 
Hybrid ESL speakers / corner placed woofers

One option which has not been listed here, and which i do not recall being covered by "the ESL cookbook" is use of corner based woofers combined with ESL front speakers.

This sounds little different from using a subwoofer with an normal ESL, but the key difference is to use a high cross over - like 4-500 Hz.

For details on how to acheive time alignment and suitable woofers, please see www.Lyngdorf.com.

The corner placement of the woofers may help alleviate some of the problems with different radiation patterns from the woofers and the panel which is experienced in normal hybrid esl speakers.

I have heard this arrangement provide good sound with conventional bookshelf speakers supplemented with the W210 lyngdorf corner woofers, but can not repeat this arrangement in my own living room due to my speakers standing in front of a full width build-in cabinet.

BTW - I use two Lyngdorf TDAI2200 to provide X-over and drive my modified ML Sequel II's, and this works out reasonably well.
 
Don't worry about the different radiation patterns as the latter is a function of response vs distance. So it is irrelevant in case of a fixed listening position. It probably isn't a big issue in case of varying distances either as your listening room will have a major impact on the dispersion pattern (which are only valid for certain frequencies anyway)
 
Hi Martin
I believe the different dispersion patters is a problem is because:

A generic omnidirectional sound source in a room will send some sound directly to the listener, and other will arrive delayed due to being reflected from a boundary (floor, ceiling, near side, far side and back wall).

I in my case the reflection from the back wall is less of a problem as it is far (4-5 meters) from the seating position in my 52 sq meter living room.

With a tall bipolar panel speaker, several of these reflection are less of a problem; floor and ceilings should not come into play for a tall line source, and the reflection from the front wall can be directed away from a central listening position.

However for omnidirectional woofers near the ESL's (in the middle of the room), most or all reflections will be present, leading to a less accurate sound.

I use a crossover frequency typically around 300 hz, and hence at say 1-200 hz there are ample reflections, and at 4-500 hz there are minimal reflexions. I do experience the bass as being less precise / slightly different from the sound than the ESL, probably for the same reason.

For a corner placement, only the far sidewall, and ceiling comes into play, and for a hypothetical corner placed tall line source, only the far sidewall reflection will be a problem, and a lesser one due to the significant delay compared with the direct sound.

Hence there are good reasons that in particular a tall corner placed woofer unit has the potential to mate better with a ESL than any woofer placed conventionally near/under the ESL.

There are other problems with corner placement, such as frequency response and time delay, but these can be handled for example by using a digital equalizer (my amps has built-in ones). Many home theater amps have simple similar systems.

Cheers H_T
 
Corner placed woofers / radiation pattern similar to ESL or not

Hi Guys

I believe that Martins point that a sound source must be longer than the wave length to act as a linesource is correct for an upen space/outdoors.

I an home environment, I belive that a sound source which goes all the way from the floor to the ceiling should act as a line source - and this should hold true also for very low frequencies / long wavelengths. (in this I assume that the ceiling is parallel to the floor; which applies to most rooms)

Please correct me if you disagree.

As also Martin says, few or no commercially available sound sources behaves like this, but a source like this could be made from a large number of conventional dynamic units in a closed cabinet (placed in the corner of the room). While each unit acts as a point source, the combination of the units should act as a line source.

Cheers H_T
 
Yep, a speaker from floor to ceiling is interesting. E. Fikier describes the ESL240 in his book which is a 240 cm high esl. Unfortunately, his new home had a slightly lower ceiling so this speaker didn't fit anymore. This was the first esl I heard and it was a great experience.
I assume that going from floor to ceiling will act as a linesource because there are no pressure differences across the whole length of the room ( a kind of a waveguide) So I agree with you H-T !
 
Hi,

thats exactly what I was proposing ;)

When the array nearly reaches from bottom to ceiling it is ´mirrored´ which means that its height is virtually trippled. With this trick the array is working as a line source for lower freqs than it does under free-air conditions and even for low crossover points array and ESl work with similar distribution characters.

jauu
Calvin
 
Hi guys

My Sequel II's have about 2 feet gaps between the panel and the floor/ceiling. The cookbook says that this should be good enough for the panel to act as a line source.

I do feel that the sound level is very even in the room, with much lesst difference in sound level between near and far field, compared to when I temporarily used conventional speakers in the same position.

Having an ESL going all the way to the ceiling should still not make a freestanding ESL / or dynamic woofers in an open panel produce deep bass due to the problems with phase cancellation around the side of the panel, which I am sure you are familiar with.

I am afraid that to produce deep bass, an enclosure is required.....

H_T
 
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