Vil said:
Hi Vil,
Interesting comments.
I was impressed with the sound of the unit personally but about the best DAC's and clock I've heard is my own Apogee DA16x so its hardly as if I've got a huge reference to draw from. The DA16x is also an integrated clock/DAC solution so maybe its a compromise. No worse than the Antelope Isochrone OCX I had prior to that though.
Have you heard the DA16x? Would like to hear your comments if you have - good or bad for that matter.
What did you think to the RME fireface sound quality.
Also what mods did you perform? Sound very interesting.
>>>>Have you heard the DA16x?
no , but i heard another Apogee stuff .
>>>>What did you think to the RME fireface sound quality.
pretty good , nice design .
>>>Also what mods did you perform?
replace cheap 4580 opamps with something better , also most caps are cheap ones too , and can be replaced , especially those on output / input .
no , but i heard another Apogee stuff .
>>>>What did you think to the RME fireface sound quality.
pretty good , nice design .
>>>Also what mods did you perform?
replace cheap 4580 opamps with something better , also most caps are cheap ones too , and can be replaced , especially those on output / input .
If anyones interested in some very fine equipment to run a PCXO then check out my for sale thread here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71372
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71372
My RME Fireface 800 arrived yesterday and that's the reason for the sale of the Lynx and Apogee kit!
I'm still quite stunned at the quality of the sound. I also managed to try out the C777 clock inside the Apogee as masterclock with the RME as slave. It sounded even better and gave it a slightly warmer and certainly an even more sharply focused sound.
All my playing around yesterday/today its led me to believe that something somewhere in the Lynx/Apogee combo isn't right because I'd expect them to audibly outperform the RME. Maybe its because I was transfering the data over AES from the PC to Apogee DAC's? Maybe my PC is electrically noisy and it was affectiing the Lynx? It could be a number of things and refuse to flat out believe the £900 RME Fireface 800 is superior to £3600 worth of Apogee and Lynx kit.
Despite my conclusion I'm still going to move over to the Fireface, sell the Lynx/Apogee kit and then buy a standalone masterclock. Vil has also suggested some modifications to the Fireface so I'll carry those out too.
For me its a better sounding unit as well as a more complete solution.
I'll post a couple of pics a little later.
I'm still quite stunned at the quality of the sound. I also managed to try out the C777 clock inside the Apogee as masterclock with the RME as slave. It sounded even better and gave it a slightly warmer and certainly an even more sharply focused sound.
All my playing around yesterday/today its led me to believe that something somewhere in the Lynx/Apogee combo isn't right because I'd expect them to audibly outperform the RME. Maybe its because I was transfering the data over AES from the PC to Apogee DAC's? Maybe my PC is electrically noisy and it was affectiing the Lynx? It could be a number of things and refuse to flat out believe the £900 RME Fireface 800 is superior to £3600 worth of Apogee and Lynx kit.
Despite my conclusion I'm still going to move over to the Fireface, sell the Lynx/Apogee kit and then buy a standalone masterclock. Vil has also suggested some modifications to the Fireface so I'll carry those out too.
For me its a better sounding unit as well as a more complete solution.
I'll post a couple of pics a little later.
ewildgoose said:
Hi Ed,
I was wondering if I could talk to you about your DACT attenuator?
I'm looking at building something almost identical to what your using now but I've got a few questions regarding sourcing of components.
Where did you order your 8 gang version of the CT2 from and what resistance did you choose?
Where did you get your wonderful looking 1U case from?
I assume you bought the DACT remote kit from Bent Audio and imported it to the UK.
Roughly how much did it cost to do this?
Thanks!
Hello,
This is my first post in these forums. I followed a link from AVS forums and have been engrossed in this thread ever since.
I've already got into DRC using the DRC program and created Impulse Responses for my speakers with Cooledit pro following the Rush Jones guide. I use the IR file within Foobars' convolver to good effect.
I'm slowly getting into Multi-Channel for both Movies and Video. My main priority at the moment though is to maximise the quality for 2 channel audio for CD's, Records and SACD's
I have some frustration with my current set-up as I cannot easily apply DRC to external inputs and the Impulse Response file is limited to 44.1khz (although I have upsampled it to produce a 96khz version, and this seems to work quite well with 96khz files)
My main priority at the moment is to create a very simple crossover between my mains and subwoofer at the moment and then gradually upgrade to a system of the kind discussed here.
My main speakers use single driver Lowther DX4's to cover most of the frequency range, so I don't need the elaborate crossovers discussed here between different drivers.
I have the EMU 1212M sound card, so that also limits my output options to one set of analogue and one s/pdif output.
At the moment I just want to limit the output to my mains by creating a High Pass filter at around 80hz.
I'd be very grateful if somone here could explain exactly how to go about this. Would the use of Console and the free Liner Phase equalizer mentioned here be overkill for this task?
It would at least allow me to start learning this software without getting in at the deep end. Perhaps I could create a low pass filter for the sub at the same time which would give me better results than the subs own built in crossover?
Any help/advise will be much appreciated.
Thanks
geoff
This is my first post in these forums. I followed a link from AVS forums and have been engrossed in this thread ever since.
I've already got into DRC using the DRC program and created Impulse Responses for my speakers with Cooledit pro following the Rush Jones guide. I use the IR file within Foobars' convolver to good effect.
I'm slowly getting into Multi-Channel for both Movies and Video. My main priority at the moment though is to maximise the quality for 2 channel audio for CD's, Records and SACD's
I have some frustration with my current set-up as I cannot easily apply DRC to external inputs and the Impulse Response file is limited to 44.1khz (although I have upsampled it to produce a 96khz version, and this seems to work quite well with 96khz files)
My main priority at the moment is to create a very simple crossover between my mains and subwoofer at the moment and then gradually upgrade to a system of the kind discussed here.
My main speakers use single driver Lowther DX4's to cover most of the frequency range, so I don't need the elaborate crossovers discussed here between different drivers.
I have the EMU 1212M sound card, so that also limits my output options to one set of analogue and one s/pdif output.
At the moment I just want to limit the output to my mains by creating a High Pass filter at around 80hz.
I'd be very grateful if somone here could explain exactly how to go about this. Would the use of Console and the free Liner Phase equalizer mentioned here be overkill for this task?
It would at least allow me to start learning this software without getting in at the deep end. Perhaps I could create a low pass filter for the sub at the same time which would give me better results than the subs own built in crossover?
Any help/advise will be much appreciated.
Thanks
geoff
Geoff,
Console won't work with your EMU card or at least it won't do what you need. The reason for this is that you have no internal loopback function on this card. You'd have to physical route the output from foobar etc. back into the card via the inputs and then you'll be able to route the audio through DRC and back out through the outputs. Problem here is that your eating up outputs and inputs. Just for 2 channel playback your looking at 2 inputs and 4 outputs needed compared to just 2 outputs needed on an RME or similar.
I've made a list of the cards that work with console on the DRC wiki site that is linked to a page or two back.
You could try another method that doesn't involve console. Though I'm virtually useless with setup details/advice outside of what I already use.
Console won't work with your EMU card or at least it won't do what you need. The reason for this is that you have no internal loopback function on this card. You'd have to physical route the output from foobar etc. back into the card via the inputs and then you'll be able to route the audio through DRC and back out through the outputs. Problem here is that your eating up outputs and inputs. Just for 2 channel playback your looking at 2 inputs and 4 outputs needed compared to just 2 outputs needed on an RME or similar.
I've made a list of the cards that work with console on the DRC wiki site that is linked to a page or two back.
You could try another method that doesn't involve console. Though I'm virtually useless with setup details/advice outside of what I already use.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Hi, anyone can email me at ed (at) duffroomcorrection (dot) com
The Dact seems like a decent solution for multichannel attenuation. I have it wired in a slightly silly way because I wanted to use balanced connectors but was too "cheap" to buy a 16 way DACT...
It's a 10K ohm. This was chosen after some consultation with a spreadsheet and basically means that the source component sees a high ish resistance and the amp sees a moderately low impedence. My amps have a pretty high internal resistance and my wires are short and I'm using balanced connectors! If I was using single ended connectors to some valve amp and long runs of cable then I probably would have chosen a different design!
The prototype was built using log pots from Maplins. Their stereo pots can be disassembled and re-assembled into a multichannel one. It's a bit stiff by the time you have 6 or so, but it costs only a few pounds sterling.
The remote kit was from Bent Audio and I had it shipped directly at great cost. The owner is really helpful and for an 8 way DACT unit you will need an uprated powersupply (I am trying 24v input at the moment to see if I can get enough grunt - with 18v it worked ok, but kept sticking). The Bent remote needs a little more space than 1U so I redrilled the holes so that it lies all horizontal, then I put a dent in the bottom of the 1U case to give a tiny bit more height.
(The trick here is to cut out a hole in a piece of wood, then you clamp the bottom of the case to the wood and take a medium hammer and pummel the metal base... It stretches really neatly and gives a very smooth dent in the bottom of the case)
There are pictures of the finished pre-amp on the website and it seems to work pretty well, although I still need to see if the current ground arrangement is correct and avoids ground loops...
The case is from Hifi2000, but you can buy them from audiokit.it in italy. They are very cheap at just a few euros, but the quality isn't bad. They now do another fascia with a huge thick piece of alu... Beware that they shipped the first batch to me wrapped in brown paper and of course all the corners got bent - make sure that you specify that you want them to put the stuff in decent packaging before shipping internationally!
Our local hifi club has bought quite a few of these boxes so they seem to be scoring good marks. The only mod I did was to get some taller stick on feet for the bottom from Maplins.
Any other questions just drop me a line
Ed W
Shin,
Thanks so much for your fast response. I'm very tempted by that RME Fireface 800, was just looking to get my feet wet in the meantime. I like the idea of getting the sound processing out of the computer case and all these hq IO options will probably be more than I'll ever need.
Thanks again
geoff
Thanks so much for your fast response. I'm very tempted by that RME Fireface 800, was just looking to get my feet wet in the meantime. I like the idea of getting the sound processing out of the computer case and all these hq IO options will probably be more than I'll ever need.
Thanks again
geoff
It's worth bearing in mind that the linux option is free in terms of software and getting simpler in terms of time. The Fireface and the Lynx (and the EMU) are not supported under linux though
If you have to buy stuff you might want to bear that in mind.
I think the Fireface is probably similar in quality to the HDSP 9636 + the RME DAC (but the latter is supported)
Everyone who has made progress on this stuff (linux AND windows) is seriously encouraged to contribute to the body of knowledge at http://www.duffroomcorrection.com
If you have to buy stuff you might want to bear that in mind.
I think the Fireface is probably similar in quality to the HDSP 9636 + the RME DAC (but the latter is supported)
Everyone who has made progress on this stuff (linux AND windows) is seriously encouraged to contribute to the body of knowledge at http://www.duffroomcorrection.com
ewildgoose said:
Ed,
The Fireface is seriously good. I've had two RME's now and have been pleased with both, particularly the drivers.
The fireface has better DAC's than my old HDSP9632 and the SNR is 119dBA vs. 113dBA. In real terms I haven't compared it to the 9632 but have done so with the Lynx TWO B/Apogee setup and they were very close.
If your looking for value for money cards to do this on then I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any RME card/interface. The Lynx is probably the highest quality PCI card around but combined with the Apogee DA16x is way over priced IMO after experiencing what the Fireface can do for relatively little money in comparison. I wasted a lot of money there and I still can't find a buyer who wants to take the DA16x off my hands for any approaching a reasonable price.
Do you think that the sw application "virtual audio cable" would allow you to use a wider range of soundcards ? - I'm not sure if this software can do the same thing as the internal rewiring trick that the soundcard specific drivers that you have specified in this thread.
http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html
Secondly, HDMI from the PC might be comming our way soon (this would be great with the panny receivers with HDMI input - a high bandwidth multi channel audio interface from the PC with multi channel digital amplification in the 500-600$ range !)
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28838
http://gadgets.fosfor.se/panasonic-sa-xr57/
http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html
Secondly, HDMI from the PC might be comming our way soon (this would be great with the panny receivers with HDMI input - a high bandwidth multi channel audio interface from the PC with multi channel digital amplification in the 500-600$ range !)
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28838
http://gadgets.fosfor.se/panasonic-sa-xr57/
cph2000 said:
It needs to be done at driver level. I was talking to the driver developer for Lynx (can't remember his name) but he said that its impossible with ASIO/WDM/GSIO/MME for an application to access the playback and output layers of another application and pull stuff from them. This has to be done specifically in the drivers.
Ed,
Thanks. I'm quite comfortable with Linux, though I have my PC all set up with the Software I need for movies (Zoomplayer pro + ffdshow + whatever decoders I fancy at the time)
I don't really want to use a separate Linux box to do the audio processing. If I were to move to a Unix based solution right now, I'd rather switch to the Mac. RME stuff all works with the Mac as well, I believe.
Shin,
Just curious as to how you're doing DTS/Dolby, etc. decoding for movies. I use s/pdif passthru, since I've found that doing it in software hits the CPU too hard and doesn't leave me enough Spock to do everything I want with ffdshow.
... and if anyone can advise if there would still be an advantage to me using a Linear Phase eq to create crossovers between my sub and mains alone, I'd be grateful. Otherwise I may try to use one of the solutions that works(?) within ffdshow.
Thanks again
Geoff
Thanks. I'm quite comfortable with Linux, though I have my PC all set up with the Software I need for movies (Zoomplayer pro + ffdshow + whatever decoders I fancy at the time)
I don't really want to use a separate Linux box to do the audio processing. If I were to move to a Unix based solution right now, I'd rather switch to the Mac. RME stuff all works with the Mac as well, I believe.
Shin,
Just curious as to how you're doing DTS/Dolby, etc. decoding for movies. I use s/pdif passthru, since I've found that doing it in software hits the CPU too hard and doesn't leave me enough Spock to do everything I want with ffdshow.
... and if anyone can advise if there would still be an advantage to me using a Linear Phase eq to create crossovers between my sub and mains alone, I'd be grateful. Otherwise I may try to use one of the solutions that works(?) within ffdshow.
Thanks again
Geoff
Shin, no doubt the Fireface is incrementally better spec'd than the 9632, but you need to compare both in a listening test, the specs are not the whole story. I doubt there is so much difference in practice and the fireface is basically their 8 way DAC with a firewire input I think?
No problems with anyone who DOESN'T want to run linux, I just mention the limitations in case later someone regretted buying card A vs B and it limts their choice. Personally I have an all in one box running linux which uses a single remote and does everything from playing TV to watching music and DVDs and even showing me the weather or the news (all via MythTv). The quality might be a jot less than some FFDShow magic, but I still just have a normal SD tv so it's not been obvious so far. The whole lot is easily achievable with a P2.8Ghz including all the audio surround processing and the DRC stuff.
Linear phase filters mean that there is no time lag due to the filter. Normally a traditional filter creates a slight delay around the freq of the filter and it's suggested that at low frequencies our ear is quite sensitive to this timing change (it's referred to as a phase distortion). Linear phase filters can only be computed in the digital domain, but can correctly calculate filters with no phase distortion. Unfortunately nothing is ever free and so you need to listen to your filter so see if you actually think it's better in practice, but the theoretical benefits are high
Ed
No problems with anyone who DOESN'T want to run linux, I just mention the limitations in case later someone regretted buying card A vs B and it limts their choice. Personally I have an all in one box running linux which uses a single remote and does everything from playing TV to watching music and DVDs and even showing me the weather or the news (all via MythTv). The quality might be a jot less than some FFDShow magic, but I still just have a normal SD tv so it's not been obvious so far. The whole lot is easily achievable with a P2.8Ghz including all the audio surround processing and the DRC stuff.
Linear phase filters mean that there is no time lag due to the filter. Normally a traditional filter creates a slight delay around the freq of the filter and it's suggested that at low frequencies our ear is quite sensitive to this timing change (it's referred to as a phase distortion). Linear phase filters can only be computed in the digital domain, but can correctly calculate filters with no phase distortion. Unfortunately nothing is ever free and so you need to listen to your filter so see if you actually think it's better in practice, but the theoretical benefits are high
Ed
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