Ok, I ripped my entire CD collection onto an SSD, bought a windows touch screen PC and with only Windows Media Server, have a pretty good server. Of course, it goes to a USB DAC, then to an analog preamp, analog crossover and analog amps. Adding a few SSRs so when the PC powers up, so does everything else. The "boss" demands it to be easy and intuitive.
I do still have a very good CD player that is convenient ( PCM out) and a analog line from my cable box for background music. Easy to make both into USB.
I found a pretty nice PC based equalizer.
What I do not find is a well integrated "preamp" application to tie things together as easily as my analog preamp. Simple touch screen buttons for source and volume. Then buttons to get to the EQ, crossover, and output routing setup. I do not see any particular reason this could not be done. Don't need BT, phones or stuff, but I gather some would.
If such an app existed, I would only need the PC and a DAC for each amp.
Actually, we need a protocol and format to feed the digital stream right to the PWM stage of the power amps bypassing yet another D2A/A2D stage but that is a different question.
I do still have a very good CD player that is convenient ( PCM out) and a analog line from my cable box for background music. Easy to make both into USB.
I found a pretty nice PC based equalizer.
What I do not find is a well integrated "preamp" application to tie things together as easily as my analog preamp. Simple touch screen buttons for source and volume. Then buttons to get to the EQ, crossover, and output routing setup. I do not see any particular reason this could not be done. Don't need BT, phones or stuff, but I gather some would.
If such an app existed, I would only need the PC and a DAC for each amp.
Actually, we need a protocol and format to feed the digital stream right to the PWM stage of the power amps bypassing yet another D2A/A2D stage but that is a different question.
... What are you asking about?
DSP with crossovers and channel mapping on PC? Lot's of ways to go.
What kind of operating system are you on?
Edit:
If "the boss" wants intuitive and easy I'd probably just get a minidsp nanodigi unit if you want to keep it digital for most of the way. Dedicated DSP processing unit means less lag and less fiddling about in general. There's lots of good DSP units to be had if you want analog to analog, no need to worry about double conversion if the hardware is good.
DSP with crossovers and channel mapping on PC? Lot's of ways to go.
What kind of operating system are you on?
Edit:
If "the boss" wants intuitive and easy I'd probably just get a minidsp nanodigi unit if you want to keep it digital for most of the way. Dedicated DSP processing unit means less lag and less fiddling about in general. There's lots of good DSP units to be had if you want analog to analog, no need to worry about double conversion if the hardware is good.
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Windows 10. Host is an all in one touch screen, so no way to add a sound card internally. Finding some stuff, just not put together. Found a tool that will let an F-key send a string over on GitHub. If enough to change audio input mapping I do not know. I bet there is a way to write a script that a shortcut would run that could. I was a system architect, not a programmer. I hired smart guys for the code. I can sort of handle an Arduino, but Windows? No way.
I have not been impressed with the MiniDSP. I know Sigfried claimed they were good enough, but I thought them harsh. Only heard them once and it could have been anything in the system. I don't know of others that a real person can afford. Oh, did find one just for subs that looked OK. I tried a Berhringer and it was one of the most horrid sounding things I ever used. Dumped on e-bay. I have been told the DBX is no better.
Can you point me to host based crossover and channel mapping? I may not be searching for the correct things. Heck if I could even just get the input mapping that would be progress. I could keep my analog crossovers. Just like I have shortcuts for streaming radio and for Media server, I would want a shortcut for 'CD" and "Spectrum"
The old systems guy in me just can't stand redundant functions. I know, by the time the studio got done with it, the analog passed 100 Signetics OP amps and who knows how many conversions. No worse than the number of times it used to go looped on tape. It just kills me though.
So input mapping, crossovers, output mapping. And some DSP for time and eq. All as intuitive as the selector and volume control on my Nak.
I have not been impressed with the MiniDSP. I know Sigfried claimed they were good enough, but I thought them harsh. Only heard them once and it could have been anything in the system. I don't know of others that a real person can afford. Oh, did find one just for subs that looked OK. I tried a Berhringer and it was one of the most horrid sounding things I ever used. Dumped on e-bay. I have been told the DBX is no better.
Can you point me to host based crossover and channel mapping? I may not be searching for the correct things. Heck if I could even just get the input mapping that would be progress. I could keep my analog crossovers. Just like I have shortcuts for streaming radio and for Media server, I would want a shortcut for 'CD" and "Spectrum"
The old systems guy in me just can't stand redundant functions. I know, by the time the studio got done with it, the analog passed 100 Signetics OP amps and who knows how many conversions. No worse than the number of times it used to go looped on tape. It just kills me though.
So input mapping, crossovers, output mapping. And some DSP for time and eq. All as intuitive as the selector and volume control on my Nak.
So, you want something like the functionality of an AV-amp, but on Windows?
The main problem i see with this is that windows makes it hard to route audio between applications and also to use multiple audio interfaces. There were once some hacky shared mem virtual loopback cables, but i don‘t know if they still exist.
So i guess you will need an audio-interface that does multichannel and multiclient (for media centerintegration). I don‘t know any that has multiple spdif but you only need one, right? Rme has some nice ones, even with usb. They also come with an i/o mixer that is midi controllable. There still are virtual midi loopback cables. And there are apps that allow you to define control-surfaces that connect via midi.
My only experience with those is on ios though, i liked lemur.
This would solve your routing, if i understood your requirements correctly.
If you want to control more, the only way i see is to use a DAW like studio one or reaper and remotecontrol that via midi.
Much easier to just an AV amp, or build a dedicated device with linux.
The main problem i see with this is that windows makes it hard to route audio between applications and also to use multiple audio interfaces. There were once some hacky shared mem virtual loopback cables, but i don‘t know if they still exist.
So i guess you will need an audio-interface that does multichannel and multiclient (for media centerintegration). I don‘t know any that has multiple spdif but you only need one, right? Rme has some nice ones, even with usb. They also come with an i/o mixer that is midi controllable. There still are virtual midi loopback cables. And there are apps that allow you to define control-surfaces that connect via midi.
My only experience with those is on ios though, i liked lemur.
This would solve your routing, if i understood your requirements correctly.
If you want to control more, the only way i see is to use a DAW like studio one or reaper and remotecontrol that via midi.
Much easier to just an AV amp, or build a dedicated device with linux.
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Sorry about the late reply.
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I also like the dbmark XCA and DP series, not perfect but very good value for money!
Yeah, I know. But the nanodigi is all digital though, I'm putting it together with a bunch of Khadas Tone Boards and some amps in a little box to have in the livingroom. I also have good experience with some PA DSP's that are excellent at what they do but they're perhaps a bit too transparent in that they also let through any and all noise from up the chain. If dbx is a brand you *could* consider I would only look at the Venu 360 and not the lower end stuff. Behringer makes me itchy. There's some reasonably priced options from Thomann like the t.racks 206 and upwards, I know some members here are very happy with the the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini which is dirt cheap for what you get.
If you're dead-set on the windows thing then perhaps it's either walking over to Jriver or get freaky with EqualizerAPO but that's not exactly perfect in my eyes. A more basic variant can be done with Voicemeeter Banana VB-Audio VoiceMeeter Banana but that program also has some limitations even though I got it working pretty good.
Sorry man! The simplicity thing is one of several issues that made me eventually crawl away from computer based DSP and get my feet firmly planted on Majick Box ground, if you have someone else that need to control it in an easy way and you also want very low latency on the signal chain, my personal vote goes to Pro DSP boxes, doesn't have to be expensive but get a box you don't have to spend another 1000$ modding to get it sounding half decent.
Edit:
I also like the dbmark XCA and DP series, not perfect but very good value for money!
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Well, so far,
An IO box like the Focusrite 4i4 is actually a very good DAC for output of a host based crossover. (or 8i8 of a full active crossover. ) No stupid 32 bit, but that is fake anyway.
Found an input switcher on Git Hub. Did not play with it as I wil explain.
I was running the EqualizerAPO/Peace GUI, but I need very little help above bass that a slight tweak of a tone control does not get good enough.
So, trying to upgrade my DAC ( T&T posted elsewhere) I determined all my junk is just too old, caps bad etc.
Solution for now:
PC is the media server and a couple WEB streams ( classical, iHeart) Previewed several streaming services and not impressed, epically for the price.
One analog feed from my AVR for FM, Spectrum music channels, or if I wanted to play a CD in my OPPO, I can for background music so quality not an issue.
Bought a Schiit Asgard DAC/headamp/pre. ( deliver this week) It source selects DAC or one analog. Just enough as I sold my tuner and will sell my CD players as redundant.
Bought a new Parasound classic amp (Deliver this week) Hope a good choice, the Schiit Vidar looks very good.
Building an XKitx crossover for the main to sub @ 60 Hz (Waiting on case to build.)
Mod to the LP out for a first order 20 Hz( or may buffer and go second) to limit infrasonic cone excursion. Lowers HD.
Plan on re-boxing my sealed sub to a bandpass to reduce harmonic distortion artifacts.
My USB driven SSR to power everything up caused transformer hum, so relays on order.
If the Schiit stuff is good, will add their LOKI tone controls.
Many tweaks to the Windows server. USB power, run priority etc. Avast driver update and registry tools seem to be superior. Online so still running Malewarebytes. Killed most of the startup processes.
I may look into converting from Windows to Linux. At least I can look into rc.d and find out what the heck is going on. ( I was a UNIX admin many years ago) Everyone who suggested I buy a mac has not offered to help with the price.
The Raspberry folks all seem to think I have an iPad or phone I want to use as a remote control. Nope. Somehow, they keep missing I bought a 21 inch Windows touch screen all-in one as my media server. One suggested I use the Windows as a dumb terminal. 2 computers to play a CD seems a bit silly to me.
I did find one inline SUB DSP box that looks pretty good. I am not sure I need it after I get things tuned up. It even takes input from REW. Or as it is the SUB, a mini-DSP may bot be bad, just not in my mains.
So the only things old left will be my O-Audio sub plate and my Seas based speakers I am very happy with, but darn, lookin at that new CSS woofer and maybe a Transducer Tec tweeter...
All this should be simple, turn on the computer, about 15 seconds, drag tunes to play and walk away. Simple. Should solve two priorities. Sound and HWHL.
An IO box like the Focusrite 4i4 is actually a very good DAC for output of a host based crossover. (or 8i8 of a full active crossover. ) No stupid 32 bit, but that is fake anyway.
Found an input switcher on Git Hub. Did not play with it as I wil explain.
I was running the EqualizerAPO/Peace GUI, but I need very little help above bass that a slight tweak of a tone control does not get good enough.
So, trying to upgrade my DAC ( T&T posted elsewhere) I determined all my junk is just too old, caps bad etc.
Solution for now:
PC is the media server and a couple WEB streams ( classical, iHeart) Previewed several streaming services and not impressed, epically for the price.
One analog feed from my AVR for FM, Spectrum music channels, or if I wanted to play a CD in my OPPO, I can for background music so quality not an issue.
Bought a Schiit Asgard DAC/headamp/pre. ( deliver this week) It source selects DAC or one analog. Just enough as I sold my tuner and will sell my CD players as redundant.
Bought a new Parasound classic amp (Deliver this week) Hope a good choice, the Schiit Vidar looks very good.
Building an XKitx crossover for the main to sub @ 60 Hz (Waiting on case to build.)
Mod to the LP out for a first order 20 Hz( or may buffer and go second) to limit infrasonic cone excursion. Lowers HD.
Plan on re-boxing my sealed sub to a bandpass to reduce harmonic distortion artifacts.
My USB driven SSR to power everything up caused transformer hum, so relays on order.
If the Schiit stuff is good, will add their LOKI tone controls.
Many tweaks to the Windows server. USB power, run priority etc. Avast driver update and registry tools seem to be superior. Online so still running Malewarebytes. Killed most of the startup processes.
I may look into converting from Windows to Linux. At least I can look into rc.d and find out what the heck is going on. ( I was a UNIX admin many years ago) Everyone who suggested I buy a mac has not offered to help with the price.
The Raspberry folks all seem to think I have an iPad or phone I want to use as a remote control. Nope. Somehow, they keep missing I bought a 21 inch Windows touch screen all-in one as my media server. One suggested I use the Windows as a dumb terminal. 2 computers to play a CD seems a bit silly to me.
I did find one inline SUB DSP box that looks pretty good. I am not sure I need it after I get things tuned up. It even takes input from REW. Or as it is the SUB, a mini-DSP may bot be bad, just not in my mains.
So the only things old left will be my O-Audio sub plate and my Seas based speakers I am very happy with, but darn, lookin at that new CSS woofer and maybe a Transducer Tec tweeter...
All this should be simple, turn on the computer, about 15 seconds, drag tunes to play and walk away. Simple. Should solve two priorities. Sound and HWHL.
This is just how it goes looking for audio solutions in windows. People keep recommending Linux or PI to you because they are better easier solutions which produce better results. I have been down roads with windows and Linux, the pi with moode makes me happier. You can get good results with windows but if your concerned about how Microsoft gets it done you will still be disappointed.
1. It's cumbersome (but very good!) in text format, and the GUI is horrible/not logical for me.
2. For the correction I wanted to do at the time it added delay which was too much, believe it or not... The delay for the filters should add about 22msec, but the I/O in terms of virtual cable links etc added a bit more than that with buffers everywhere and whatnot. I got synchronization issues with HDMI for some reason, and using other amps with analog signals did not solve my problem.
Had far less delay using a VST host and the wonderful Engineers Filter written by Robin Schmidt, think that is a far more flexible and superior solution to Equalizer APO, please don't flame me down for having an opinion.
End result based on my personal failings/experiences:
No matter what solution you go for on Windows or Linux (if you have specific requirements in regards to distortion and THD+N), it will add more delay to the signal path, be more expensive and be less flexible than a half decent Pro DSP unit intended for PA applications. Which would typically add about 1,7-2msec delay total and be much easier to configure.
The VST host or Linux equivalent route is an excellent way to figure out what you actually want or need, but as a long term easy-to-use for everyone solution? Hard to beat having a single physical unit with a huge volume knob connected to another unit that's hidden away to do all the processing. Remote control volume is done using the volume keys on the wireless keyboard, kids are confident to use this stuff since age 6.
Edit:
The delay thing might be a non-issue if you're ONLY listening to music, but it was something that completely ruined the experience of any video or gaming.
Might be I have some OCD though...
2. For the correction I wanted to do at the time it added delay which was too much, believe it or not... The delay for the filters should add about 22msec, but the I/O in terms of virtual cable links etc added a bit more than that with buffers everywhere and whatnot. I got synchronization issues with HDMI for some reason, and using other amps with analog signals did not solve my problem.
Had far less delay using a VST host and the wonderful Engineers Filter written by Robin Schmidt, think that is a far more flexible and superior solution to Equalizer APO, please don't flame me down for having an opinion.
End result based on my personal failings/experiences:
No matter what solution you go for on Windows or Linux (if you have specific requirements in regards to distortion and THD+N), it will add more delay to the signal path, be more expensive and be less flexible than a half decent Pro DSP unit intended for PA applications. Which would typically add about 1,7-2msec delay total and be much easier to configure.
The VST host or Linux equivalent route is an excellent way to figure out what you actually want or need, but as a long term easy-to-use for everyone solution? Hard to beat having a single physical unit with a huge volume knob connected to another unit that's hidden away to do all the processing. Remote control volume is done using the volume keys on the wireless keyboard, kids are confident to use this stuff since age 6.
Edit:
The delay thing might be a non-issue if you're ONLY listening to music, but it was something that completely ruined the experience of any video or gaming.
Might be I have some OCD though...
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Yea, but my grand nieces and nephews are to far away and only under 5. I did see USB volume controls, popular with gamers I guess.
Kaffi, did you load the PEACE GUI? Pretty strait forward. I left it on my desktop where it is a useful improvement.
I don't know what pro DSP PA unit, but my DCX was so horrid, I tossed it. Heard a DBX Pro Drive and equally not impressed. I guess there are studio devices that cost more than a car, but irrelevant.
I am playing back music. A few mS or more is irrelevant. Not trying to sync with video where it would be a pain, as if half of the cable feeds were in sync to start with!
I will see if I can run Linux on the all-in-one. Usually the only issue is drivers for proprietary hardware. Maybe I should have ripped my CDs as Flac to start with.
New stuff should start getting here tomorrow. Playing with improving power supplies today.
Kaffi, did you load the PEACE GUI? Pretty strait forward. I left it on my desktop where it is a useful improvement.
I don't know what pro DSP PA unit, but my DCX was so horrid, I tossed it. Heard a DBX Pro Drive and equally not impressed. I guess there are studio devices that cost more than a car, but irrelevant.
I am playing back music. A few mS or more is irrelevant. Not trying to sync with video where it would be a pain, as if half of the cable feeds were in sync to start with!
I will see if I can run Linux on the all-in-one. Usually the only issue is drivers for proprietary hardware. Maybe I should have ripped my CDs as Flac to start with.
New stuff should start getting here tomorrow. Playing with improving power supplies today.
No, I did not try the Peace GUI, but nevertheless I was very happy with the text file option. The ultimate dealbreaker for me was the latency thing.
I hear you about not liking things like the DCX, but I just get a nagging suspicion there might be some issues with the surrounding equipment. Might be I have a limited basis of experience, but the few incidences where I've been able to figure out the actual sources of oscillations that caused other issues, hum, various noise, it's all come from a unit before the DSP in question.
I am not a big fan of the basic miniDSP units, but with a good power supply and the right equipment in both ends I think they're good value for what they are.
The Zoudio AIO 4ch is probably one of the most bang for buck things I've ever bought, not the best of the best but crazy value and simplicity.
I was starting to suspect an issue with my Pascal power amp here the other day, traced it back to my external DAC starting to become unstable. Immediately tossed it away, my dusty old UR28M may not be perfect reference quality but it is very stable and versatile so now it's back in duty and doing a very decent job for the time being.
Thinking about getting the Topping D90 but funds are a bit tight right now.
I hear you about not liking things like the DCX, but I just get a nagging suspicion there might be some issues with the surrounding equipment. Might be I have a limited basis of experience, but the few incidences where I've been able to figure out the actual sources of oscillations that caused other issues, hum, various noise, it's all come from a unit before the DSP in question.
I am not a big fan of the basic miniDSP units, but with a good power supply and the right equipment in both ends I think they're good value for what they are.
The Zoudio AIO 4ch is probably one of the most bang for buck things I've ever bought, not the best of the best but crazy value and simplicity.
I was starting to suspect an issue with my Pascal power amp here the other day, traced it back to my external DAC starting to become unstable. Immediately tossed it away, my dusty old UR28M may not be perfect reference quality but it is very stable and versatile so now it's back in duty and doing a very decent job for the time being.
Thinking about getting the Topping D90 but funds are a bit tight right now.
For routing, I would check jack audio. It should be able to do any routing you need and you should be able to control it via scripts, so you'll just need to use some simple interface with buttons to call the scripts. You should be able to include whatever DSP software you pick for your crossover/EQ in the routing so regular users won't have to ever see it.
The GUI of EqAPO is indeed problematic, to put it mildly. Futhermore, even when using a different text file, the GUI seemed stuck in the previous file.
A really decent GUI would allow any user to import measured files, have target curves and would allow proper overlays. In loudspeaker x /o development found myself constantly making loopback measurements in ARTA to see if I would already approach my target. Very time consuming, but still wonderful once done.
A really decent GUI would allow any user to import measured files, have target curves and would allow proper overlays. In loudspeaker x /o development found myself constantly making loopback measurements in ARTA to see if I would already approach my target. Very time consuming, but still wonderful once done.
The Edirol (aka Roland, Cakewalk) FA66 or FA101 also have very good DACs. A programmed gate array.
dave
Mine too. But it is probably fine if you don’t use the analog parts which suck big time.
dave
The "PEACE" GUI Seems OK to me. Now if you want it to import results of REW, Holm, Arta, that would be another application. It would be cool. There is a sub DSP controller that does and I think minidsp can do so.
However, I am learning more about the Windows audio path. Seems DirectSound, which these tools pass through, generates considerable distortion. WASAPI or ASIO are preferable. So my old brute force of just tuning the crossovers and a basic tone control provide cleaner sound. So I think the answer is to investigate some of the recording studio type applications that may do similar things but within ASIO path. That is if I understand it correctly Very new to this stuff.
FWIW, I do not get carried away with perfectly flat in-room responses. Your brain makes an expectation when you walk into a room picking up the ambient sound and will do considerable eq for you. So if you get your crossover region within a couple dB, no big JBL style mid bass hump, and top end rolloff sounding in balance with the bass, you are good to go.
I have a Linux setup running Music Player Daemon as a server and has a 15 band equaliser.
You can use any MPD client to control it. We use MPDroid on our Android phones. this allows volume control, queuing. My wife and I can both add to the playlist / manipulate etc... without having to share a single tablet / console (no extra devices required).
I use SSH commands with a pushbutton app if I want to change EQ.
I have a script that "remembers" the EQ across the library for songs. I have about 6 programmed but an infinite number are possible. When the album loads, the EQ switches in or out as required.
The above is running on a Raspberry Pi 3b with 240Gb SSD
I can also enable HTTP streaming - so can for example use my phone as an HTTP -> Bluetooth "Relay" for connecting to a boombox out in the garden and still control the music.
You can use any MPD client to control it. We use MPDroid on our Android phones. this allows volume control, queuing. My wife and I can both add to the playlist / manipulate etc... without having to share a single tablet / console (no extra devices required).
I use SSH commands with a pushbutton app if I want to change EQ.
I have a script that "remembers" the EQ across the library for songs. I have about 6 programmed but an infinite number are possible. When the album loads, the EQ switches in or out as required.
The above is running on a Raspberry Pi 3b with 240Gb SSD
I can also enable HTTP streaming - so can for example use my phone as an HTTP -> Bluetooth "Relay" for connecting to a boombox out in the garden and still control the music.
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