Thank you for the info.
I’m still waiting for mine.
I don’t know for the sound quality improvement, but I guess that it may help to play dsd 128 & 256 using dop which is not possible using allo isolator which is limited to 24/192.
Superreg supplies X4 for Katana
I've been missing in action from here over the festive period but have been busy working my way through PSU options for my Katana DAC stack.
I have tried LM317/LT3042/3045 regulators of various types, separate transformers for each board and now cascaded choke regulation/filtering with Cap multipliers before Super-regulators. I've even added LT3042 regs as tracking pre-regs on the Superreg boards. I've also improved the superregs to reduce their noise. Sounds rather good and much better than my old Naim CDS3.
More detail to follow but here's a picture of where I am now:
John
I've been missing in action from here over the festive period but have been busy working my way through PSU options for my Katana DAC stack.
I have tried LM317/LT3042/3045 regulators of various types, separate transformers for each board and now cascaded choke regulation/filtering with Cap multipliers before Super-regulators. I've even added LT3042 regs as tracking pre-regs on the Superreg boards. I've also improved the superregs to reduce their noise. Sounds rather good and much better than my old Naim CDS3.
More detail to follow but here's a picture of where I am now:
John
Attachments
Looking good! ����
And sounding it too, I would suspect ... ��
Do you have a sense of what makes the larger gains in your system?
One of the earlier posts recommended the iFi AC iPurifier as a potentially very useful device, which I would support experimenting with, even if one already has a pile of mains improvement stuff in place.
Ditto the DC iPurifiers which, in series, can IME be very worthwhile.
And sounding it too, I would suspect ... ��
Do you have a sense of what makes the larger gains in your system?
One of the earlier posts recommended the iFi AC iPurifier as a potentially very useful device, which I would support experimenting with, even if one already has a pile of mains improvement stuff in place.
Ditto the DC iPurifiers which, in series, can IME be very worthwhile.
Hi guys,
I'm glad to announce that I got a new stack from allo to replace the one I fried due to inverted polarity J31 Katana board provided cable and that I got my Katana running with 3 PSU (Katana, MC, Isolator).
Now, I'm hesitating between 2 options for the +-15VDC:
Anybody daring to make a recommendation?
I'm glad to announce that I got a new stack from allo to replace the one I fried due to inverted polarity J31 Katana board provided cable and that I got my Katana running with 3 PSU (Katana, MC, Isolator).
Now, I'm hesitating between 2 options for the +-15VDC:
- TwistedPearAudio
Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar Power Supply Kit
15V+15V (50VA) Power Transformer
Anybody daring to make a recommendation?
@Jonathan P,
To add to what @jonners said, in the main Allo thread post 2722 shows a picture of the bottom of a THD Katana Opamp board. Post 2859 shows the bottom of a SQ Katana Opamp board. If you compare them carefully AND look closely at the SQ board picture, you will see 2 small circuit boards added on the SQ board. One is towards the upper right corner of the board in the picture, the other is towards the bottom-most RCA jack in the picture. Look as them back and forth, you'll see the difference.
On the +-15V power supplies, I KNOW the Twisted Pear Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar is a good supply that works well in other situations (mostly with the TP DAC's I/V stage) AND has been confirmed as a good +-15V supply for the Katana by my 'audio friend'. The MPAudio supply SHOULD work well, but AFAIK has not yet been confirmed on a Katana. I use other similar MPAudio supplies in a number of locations in my various setups, INCLUDING the 5V supplies for the DAC board and Microprocessor board in my Katana setup and like them a lot in these uses. I INTEND to try a +-15V MPAudio supply in my Katana setup at some point, but have not gotten to that yet.
So based on the evidence so far, the TP Audio Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar is the safest bet, though a little more challenging to implement as it is a full kit while the MPAudio supplies are sold ready-to-use, just hook up the power transformer and the outputs.
I hope this helps!
Greg in Mississippi
To add to what @jonners said, in the main Allo thread post 2722 shows a picture of the bottom of a THD Katana Opamp board. Post 2859 shows the bottom of a SQ Katana Opamp board. If you compare them carefully AND look closely at the SQ board picture, you will see 2 small circuit boards added on the SQ board. One is towards the upper right corner of the board in the picture, the other is towards the bottom-most RCA jack in the picture. Look as them back and forth, you'll see the difference.
On the +-15V power supplies, I KNOW the Twisted Pear Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar is a good supply that works well in other situations (mostly with the TP DAC's I/V stage) AND has been confirmed as a good +-15V supply for the Katana by my 'audio friend'. The MPAudio supply SHOULD work well, but AFAIK has not yet been confirmed on a Katana. I use other similar MPAudio supplies in a number of locations in my various setups, INCLUDING the 5V supplies for the DAC board and Microprocessor board in my Katana setup and like them a lot in these uses. I INTEND to try a +-15V MPAudio supply in my Katana setup at some point, but have not gotten to that yet.
So based on the evidence so far, the TP Audio Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar is the safest bet, though a little more challenging to implement as it is a full kit while the MPAudio supplies are sold ready-to-use, just hook up the power transformer and the outputs.
I hope this helps!
Greg in Mississippi
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Hi Jonathan,
The power supply you have linked from MP Audio only accepts DC input. You cannot just connect an AC transformer to it. I am also not sure that 12VAC would be high enough voltage for a +/-15 volt power supply. Others can answer that question better than I can.
Cheers, Bryce.
@greg, @BryceJ Good catch indeed!
That was actually the recommendation from Micheal at mpaudio! I guess either SD-HPULN also takes AC as input and it's a mistake on their site or maybe he suggested a transfo for the other model MD-HPULN. Will double check with him.
In either case, if I'm gonna have to make a guess on the mpaudio with Katana, I think I'll go with twistedpear kit I described above if you guys confirm it's my best bet for say, under 200$ and that the transformer I linked above is powerful enough 15V+15V (50VA) Power Transformer $27.00 USD.
@Greg, Do you mean I would have to solder each part to the pcb?
My understanding was that the 95$ kit came already assembled.
In the guide for the Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar, it says:
"Both of these PSUs are available as a kit and as a PCB. When ordering the
PCB, you’ll receive just the bare PCB (right in picture), but when ordering the
kit you’ll get the PCB with the SMD parts already installed, all of the parts
required to build the PSU plus everything needed to integrate the PSU into
your project"
If I just need to solder a few resistors, that's fine but otherwise, I'm not well geared to make several quality soldering...
That was actually the recommendation from Micheal at mpaudio! I guess either SD-HPULN also takes AC as input and it's a mistake on their site or maybe he suggested a transfo for the other model MD-HPULN. Will double check with him.
In either case, if I'm gonna have to make a guess on the mpaudio with Katana, I think I'll go with twistedpear kit I described above if you guys confirm it's my best bet for say, under 200$ and that the transformer I linked above is powerful enough 15V+15V (50VA) Power Transformer $27.00 USD.
@Greg, Do you mean I would have to solder each part to the pcb?
My understanding was that the 95$ kit came already assembled.
In the guide for the Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar, it says:
"Both of these PSUs are available as a kit and as a PCB. When ordering the
PCB, you’ll receive just the bare PCB (right in picture), but when ordering the
kit you’ll get the PCB with the SMD parts already installed, all of the parts
required to build the PSU plus everything needed to integrate the PSU into
your project"
If I just need to solder a few resistors, that's fine but otherwise, I'm not well geared to make several quality soldering...
@Jonathan, here is what I got from Michael when I asked him the same question.
The Placid HD BP 2.1 - BiPolar Shunt Regulated Power Supply is indeed a kit. Check out the manual here: http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/docs/power/placid_hd_bp_1.0_manual.pdf
Cheers, Bryce.
Although your current needed is small enough to be delivered from the SD-HPULN, please keep in mind, it needs DC only to work. In case you want to power your new power supply with a transformer, you'd need a power supply with a rectifier and buffer caps on board, like the MD-HPULN's have. This might be an alternative here.
The Placid HD BP 2.1 - BiPolar Shunt Regulated Power Supply is indeed a kit. Check out the manual here: http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/docs/power/placid_hd_bp_1.0_manual.pdf
Cheers, Bryce.
Thanks @BryceJ,
Are you planning to order the MD-HPULN? If so, please let us know how it sounds with the Katana
For the Placid HD BP 2.1, would a basic soldering iron do the job? What type of solder do you guys use? Something like that? S-070-10 | FURUTECH
Are you planning to order the MD-HPULN? If so, please let us know how it sounds with the Katana
For the Placid HD BP 2.1, would a basic soldering iron do the job? What type of solder do you guys use? Something like that? S-070-10 | FURUTECH
Thanks @BryceJ,
Are you planning to order the MD-HPULN? If so, please let us know how it sounds with the Katana
For the Placid HD BP 2.1, would a basic soldering iron do the job? What type of solder do you guys use? Something like that? S-070-10 | FURUTECH
Hi Jonathan, no I was not planning on ordering that unit. I am leaning towards the DIYINHK 4.17uV Ultralow noise DAC power supply regulator +-12/15V 1A. It seems simple and not too expensive.
@Jonathan P,
@BryceJ is correct, the SD-HPULN-PS ONLY takes DC input... from the website 'Without a rectifier onboard (powered by your device's DC)...'.
Just as I said above.
Michael may have misunderstood your requirements.
Do check out the manual on the Placid at the link from BryceJ, the only parts pre-soldered as far as I can see are the 2 SMD opamps on the board, the rest of the parts (ALMOST ALL of the parts on the board) require assembly and soldering. ALSO it requires adjusting to the desired voltage and for expected load, which will includes some measurement. Putting every part where it is supposed to be and in the correct orientation along with GOOD soldering wil be a must for proper operation.
You'll have to decide if you are up to it.
The one Bryce lists looks to be an easier option.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. @Jonathan P, good question on solder. The qualities of the solder you use can be crucial to your soldering. I've been a user of TRT's Wonder Solder since it was released in the 1980s. Not only did I find it sounded better than the typical solders I had available back then, it was very good at making good joints. There are others out there now, I just haven't tried a lot.
I haven't tried the Furatech. I have used one of the Mundorf solders with gold in the makeup. While I felt it bested the Wonder Solder sonically, it was very difficult to use and make good joints. I save it for critical joints where I know I can make it work well.
@BryceJ is correct, the SD-HPULN-PS ONLY takes DC input... from the website 'Without a rectifier onboard (powered by your device's DC)...'.
Just as I said above.
Michael may have misunderstood your requirements.
Do check out the manual on the Placid at the link from BryceJ, the only parts pre-soldered as far as I can see are the 2 SMD opamps on the board, the rest of the parts (ALMOST ALL of the parts on the board) require assembly and soldering. ALSO it requires adjusting to the desired voltage and for expected load, which will includes some measurement. Putting every part where it is supposed to be and in the correct orientation along with GOOD soldering wil be a must for proper operation.
You'll have to decide if you are up to it.
The one Bryce lists looks to be an easier option.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. @Jonathan P, good question on solder. The qualities of the solder you use can be crucial to your soldering. I've been a user of TRT's Wonder Solder since it was released in the 1980s. Not only did I find it sounded better than the typical solders I had available back then, it was very good at making good joints. There are others out there now, I just haven't tried a lot.
I haven't tried the Furatech. I have used one of the Mundorf solders with gold in the makeup. While I felt it bested the Wonder Solder sonically, it was very difficult to use and make good joints. I save it for critical joints where I know I can make it work well.
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First, @John Luckins, very happy you're back and sharing your setup. I suspect you may now have the most sophisticated and likely best sounding Katana setup around anywhere at this point. I'm envious!
I (for one) would be very interested in your impressions of the differences you perceived as you tried different options. AND any details on your specific setups, such as which chokes, caps, cap multipliers, and superreg mods you used if you are willing to share.
At the other end of the cost / complexity scale, but I bet also a great sounding Katana setup, my 'audio friend' send a couple of updates recently... his last one read as below:
"Well, I had a couple of my audio buddies over last night and I think I’m done with modding/adapting the Katana. I don’t know that there’s much else to be done and they both thought it sounded wonderful. The best they heard from any RPi HAT in my system.
Here’s where things now stand, starting with the RPi board on the bottom and working upward through the board stack.
RPi 3B+ - I want to run MoOde Audio ver. 4.4 and it takes either a 3B or a 3B+. I’ve tried both and find the 3B+ slightly better. The 3B+ is now power by a K&K low voltage power supply, the 12W version. The K&K is a bit better than the industrial or labratory-grade bench supply that was I using, and much better than any other supply that I’ve thrown at the the 3B+. In fact, in my experience, the Katana makes the RPi more sensitive to what supply one uses with it than any of the other DAC HATs that I’ve used, e.g., Boss, HiFi Berry DAC + Pro, various PCM5102 based HATs. Power is being feed to the 3B+ through two wires soldered to the 5 volt power and ground pins on bottom of the GPIO header connector on the bottom of the board.
($52 for the board kit without shipping)
Isolator - I have it in there. Frankly, I could probably take it or leave it; but, it does add a bit of quiet and blackness to the presentation. The dirty side gets its power from the K&K supply and the clean side gets its power from the supply powering the Katana DAC board.
Katana DAC board - The DAC board is powered by a DIYINHK LT3042 regulator with a series pass transistor in a low noise configuration according to the regulator chip data sheet, see: 0.8uV Ultralow noise DAC power supply regulator 3.3/5/7V 1.5A*x2 - DIYINHK. The CMC choke on the board has been bypassed - it sounds better without it. Also, I’m feeding it with one secondary winding of a 50VA toroid. I tried all sorts of power transformers and the toroid does at least three things better: i.) power, weight and authority, ii.) more expansive with more breathing room, and iii.) the proportions of various instruments in relation to each other is more appropriate or in line with reality. Power is being feed directly to the Katana DAC board by removing the external power connector and solder wires in the connector pin through-holes on the circuit board.
($60 for the board kit and $25 for the toroid without shipping)
THD+N Sparko Labs I/V and output buffer board - This board is powered by a Twisted Pear Placid HD Bipolar power supply, each rail is current sourced and shunt regulated. The current sources are set to about 325mA, and the shunt regulators are shunting about 200mA, the board drawing about 125mA per rail. The bottom end weight, authority and definition is again, the best from any DAC HAT I’ve had in my system. I’m using a 50VA toroid with an electrostatic shield from Antek.
($95 for the board kit and $18 for the toroid without shipping)
Microcontroller - This board is feed from the regulator on the other half of the regulator board used for the Katana DAC board. Again, a DIYINHK LT3042 regulator with a series pass transistor in a low noise configuration according to the regulator chip data sheet, see: 0.8uV Ultralow noise DAC power supply regulator 3.3/5/7V 1.5A*x2 - DIYINHK. Likewise, the CMC choke on the board has been bypassed - it too sounded better without it. The microcontroller is powered through two wires soldered to the SuperCap pins on the bottom of the board. I’m feeding it with the other secondary winding of the 50VA toroid.
The THD+N Sparko Labs I/V and output buffer board are feed from the micro controller board via the jumper pins used to select either the on-board DC-to-DC converter or the external feed pins - it is the center pins that I connected to. Ground is connected via the external power feed header connection.
So, in summary, the power supplies total $250 plus shipping, or about the same as the Katana from Allo with an isolator board. A pretty good value once someone has shown you what to choose….at least that’s what my two audio buddies thought.
P.S. Now I need to mount all this stuff!
In his previous report he had noted the changes when he removed the common-mode chokes: "Wider and deeper soundstage with a better speaker disappearing act - not that you could tell where they were before. And, the grounding is better referenced, you can just tell. Quieter."
AND when connecting the 5v to the Microprocessor board directly to the supercap pins on that baord: "More of the same above, and particularly the soundstage width."
I for one appreciate his deliberate and measured approach, testing options against each other in a controlled manner, retesting as he changes the overall configuration, and providing good descriptions of the differences. Great reports!
AND a reasonably easy and inexpensive setup that can be duplicated from the above and his earlier reports.
Here's pix of the connection AND his overall setup.
Greg in Mississippi
I (for one) would be very interested in your impressions of the differences you perceived as you tried different options. AND any details on your specific setups, such as which chokes, caps, cap multipliers, and superreg mods you used if you are willing to share.
At the other end of the cost / complexity scale, but I bet also a great sounding Katana setup, my 'audio friend' send a couple of updates recently... his last one read as below:
"Well, I had a couple of my audio buddies over last night and I think I’m done with modding/adapting the Katana. I don’t know that there’s much else to be done and they both thought it sounded wonderful. The best they heard from any RPi HAT in my system.
Here’s where things now stand, starting with the RPi board on the bottom and working upward through the board stack.
RPi 3B+ - I want to run MoOde Audio ver. 4.4 and it takes either a 3B or a 3B+. I’ve tried both and find the 3B+ slightly better. The 3B+ is now power by a K&K low voltage power supply, the 12W version. The K&K is a bit better than the industrial or labratory-grade bench supply that was I using, and much better than any other supply that I’ve thrown at the the 3B+. In fact, in my experience, the Katana makes the RPi more sensitive to what supply one uses with it than any of the other DAC HATs that I’ve used, e.g., Boss, HiFi Berry DAC + Pro, various PCM5102 based HATs. Power is being feed to the 3B+ through two wires soldered to the 5 volt power and ground pins on bottom of the GPIO header connector on the bottom of the board.
($52 for the board kit without shipping)
Isolator - I have it in there. Frankly, I could probably take it or leave it; but, it does add a bit of quiet and blackness to the presentation. The dirty side gets its power from the K&K supply and the clean side gets its power from the supply powering the Katana DAC board.
Katana DAC board - The DAC board is powered by a DIYINHK LT3042 regulator with a series pass transistor in a low noise configuration according to the regulator chip data sheet, see: 0.8uV Ultralow noise DAC power supply regulator 3.3/5/7V 1.5A*x2 - DIYINHK. The CMC choke on the board has been bypassed - it sounds better without it. Also, I’m feeding it with one secondary winding of a 50VA toroid. I tried all sorts of power transformers and the toroid does at least three things better: i.) power, weight and authority, ii.) more expansive with more breathing room, and iii.) the proportions of various instruments in relation to each other is more appropriate or in line with reality. Power is being feed directly to the Katana DAC board by removing the external power connector and solder wires in the connector pin through-holes on the circuit board.
($60 for the board kit and $25 for the toroid without shipping)
THD+N Sparko Labs I/V and output buffer board - This board is powered by a Twisted Pear Placid HD Bipolar power supply, each rail is current sourced and shunt regulated. The current sources are set to about 325mA, and the shunt regulators are shunting about 200mA, the board drawing about 125mA per rail. The bottom end weight, authority and definition is again, the best from any DAC HAT I’ve had in my system. I’m using a 50VA toroid with an electrostatic shield from Antek.
($95 for the board kit and $18 for the toroid without shipping)
Microcontroller - This board is feed from the regulator on the other half of the regulator board used for the Katana DAC board. Again, a DIYINHK LT3042 regulator with a series pass transistor in a low noise configuration according to the regulator chip data sheet, see: 0.8uV Ultralow noise DAC power supply regulator 3.3/5/7V 1.5A*x2 - DIYINHK. Likewise, the CMC choke on the board has been bypassed - it too sounded better without it. The microcontroller is powered through two wires soldered to the SuperCap pins on the bottom of the board. I’m feeding it with the other secondary winding of the 50VA toroid.
The THD+N Sparko Labs I/V and output buffer board are feed from the micro controller board via the jumper pins used to select either the on-board DC-to-DC converter or the external feed pins - it is the center pins that I connected to. Ground is connected via the external power feed header connection.
So, in summary, the power supplies total $250 plus shipping, or about the same as the Katana from Allo with an isolator board. A pretty good value once someone has shown you what to choose….at least that’s what my two audio buddies thought.
P.S. Now I need to mount all this stuff!
In his previous report he had noted the changes when he removed the common-mode chokes: "Wider and deeper soundstage with a better speaker disappearing act - not that you could tell where they were before. And, the grounding is better referenced, you can just tell. Quieter."
AND when connecting the 5v to the Microprocessor board directly to the supercap pins on that baord: "More of the same above, and particularly the soundstage width."
I for one appreciate his deliberate and measured approach, testing options against each other in a controlled manner, retesting as he changes the overall configuration, and providing good descriptions of the differences. Great reports!
AND a reasonably easy and inexpensive setup that can be duplicated from the above and his earlier reports.
Here's pix of the connection AND his overall setup.
Greg in Mississippi
Attachments
@John Luckins,
Seeing your setup reminded me of the heavily-choke filtered power supplies of the reference setup for Bunpei & Chaiki's SDTrans384 SD Card I2S output player / ESS ES9038Pro-based DAC.
Notice the 16 Finemet chokes (about $400 USD each), the 6 Finemet power transformers (something like $1000-$1500 USD each), the 2 Finemet ESS-output tranformers ($1300 USD for a pair), the space-rated Evans hybrid capacitors (not cheap!), and the Ducolon clock (>$1000 USD).
I bet a Katana would be in heaven powered by a similarly over-the-top setup like this!
Maybe something you can aspire to?
Anyone here with deeper pockets than mine?
I use an SDTrans384 player as my digital source in my downstairs system with a wildly modified Soekris DAM1021 DAC. BUT my power setup, which is basically the same as I describe early in this thread, is much more modest than yours, much less theirs!
Note that all of my Katana testing was in my upstairs system, which is similar, but not identical to my downstairs setup.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. A previous power supply scheme they used for this setup used bright lights shining on solar cells to provide very pure off-the-grid power. That makes John Luckin's (& my) setups look positively modest!
Seeing your setup reminded me of the heavily-choke filtered power supplies of the reference setup for Bunpei & Chaiki's SDTrans384 SD Card I2S output player / ESS ES9038Pro-based DAC.
Notice the 16 Finemet chokes (about $400 USD each), the 6 Finemet power transformers (something like $1000-$1500 USD each), the 2 Finemet ESS-output tranformers ($1300 USD for a pair), the space-rated Evans hybrid capacitors (not cheap!), and the Ducolon clock (>$1000 USD).
I bet a Katana would be in heaven powered by a similarly over-the-top setup like this!
Maybe something you can aspire to?
Anyone here with deeper pockets than mine?
I use an SDTrans384 player as my digital source in my downstairs system with a wildly modified Soekris DAM1021 DAC. BUT my power setup, which is basically the same as I describe early in this thread, is much more modest than yours, much less theirs!
Note that all of my Katana testing was in my upstairs system, which is similar, but not identical to my downstairs setup.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. A previous power supply scheme they used for this setup used bright lights shining on solar cells to provide very pure off-the-grid power. That makes John Luckin's (& my) setups look positively modest!
Attachments
Everyone has their hobbies, within their means of course. What you guys do with power supplies is one thing, but flying your own heavy jet would be in another class entirely.
Getting back to dacs, one can do as one wishes with power supplies and clocks, but for Sabre dacs, another limitation with sound quality is the PCM interpolation filtering. Who has spent hobby money to hire a DSP engineer to write new filters and put them in an FPGA for you so you can do Sabre interpolation filtering externally? If you haven't done that yet, then you are just scratching the surface with power supplies.
Getting back to dacs, one can do as one wishes with power supplies and clocks, but for Sabre dacs, another limitation with sound quality is the PCM interpolation filtering. Who has spent hobby money to hire a DSP engineer to write new filters and put them in an FPGA for you so you can do Sabre interpolation filtering externally? If you haven't done that yet, then you are just scratching the surface with power supplies.
Everyone has their hobbies, within their means of course. What you guys do with power supplies is one thing, but flying your own heavy jet would be in another class entirely.
Getting back to dacs, one can do as one wishes with power supplies and clocks, but for Sabre dacs, another limitation with sound quality is the PCM interpolation filtering. Who has spent hobby money to hire a DSP engineer to write new filters and put them in an FPGA for you so you can do Sabre interpolation filtering externally? If you haven't done that yet, then you are just scratching the surface with power supplies.
@Markw4, Would you mind sharing if you have such a FPGA interpolation filter design?