Getting the best out of Allo.com's new Katana DAC...

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Also on the modified Jameco linear regulated wall warts, if one was really serious about these, they'd look at upgrading the regulator too. My original purpose for these was to replace the SMPS wall warts that came with the various switches & FMCs I use for my audio networks, so I kept the mods simple. Then on a whim I tried some powering Isolators, Kali's, & RPi DACs & they weren't too bad.

Greg in Mississippi
 
Klaus, I am puzzled why you take Allo to task over not supplying recommended power supplies when almost NO other major RPi DAC supplier does that. IQAudio, HiFiBerry, Audiophnics, and Orchard Audio, to name a few, all only list fairly basic SMPS supplies, probably all at roughly the same level as the $11 Allo SMPS, and none of which will likely best the iFi iPower. Only Collybia (the Mamboberry DAC people) have a high-quality low-noise linear supply that retails for 140 euros. BTW, based on what they say about it, it should be a very good supply for use with the Katana, in many of the possible power supply combos.

Puzzled. :rolleyes:

You're simply mixing things up.

Allo, as they outlined themselves, is targeting the $1000 DAC market.
Allo actually had to put the target that high at roughly $500 (incl. some (at least 2) reasonable PS) for a DIY product.

They are not targeting the low end $40 HifiBerry or IQAudio market . HifiBerry doesn't even has an external power jack. Bringing these up is total BS.

Show me any device in the $1000 market that comes without PS !?!? And these usually
just need a single voltage supply. The usually required quality voltages - like +-15V - are generated inside.

And Allo won't help all that discussion by involving themselves in discussions like this here.
When I read earlier cdsgames comment about +-15V, I just thought, "Oh dear, he's doing at again - :rolleyes:"

Anyhow. Allo is very well aware of the situation. They just don't have a product yet.
They simply weren't able to use that 3 months Katana overhaul period to get Nirvana
or whatever HQ supply out.


And yes. I still consider your $1000 PS approach nonsense. Out of 1000 customers
there'll be 0.1% running such a setup. That's just one reason why bringing such a setup up is IMO nonsene.
What we need to discuss are doable, affordable and real-world setups. But that's just my opinion.


Enjoy.

PS1: People usually know where to find my suggested RPI/OS setup, configurations
and related HowTos.

PS2: And Greg, please, don't do that stupid crossposting!
 
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Hi,
iam seconding above post
we know the we need very good power supply to get best out of katana, ideally we will need 4 power supplies but practically we have to target 2 supplies (5v and bipolar 15v) or at the most 3 supplies ( 2x 5v and bipolar 15v)

the power supply has to simple ,reasonably cost , documented to be of high quality( we will need measurements of noise, psrr, low impedance and stable)

it is easier to use what is available in diyaudio rather than search for anywhere
i have three such in mind , if others are there people can chime in
1.salas ultra BIB
2.SS switcher by linear audio
3.iancanada LiFePO4 battery power supply (not yet available and bipolar 13.6v are 2 problems we have now, but ian can help if you guys ask)
 
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Greg,
I did not want to offend you and I am sorry if you felt offended by my post. My wording was slightly down.

I just tried to figure out that a “high end” - not “highest end” PSU solution is what I would welcome for my future Katana DAC and for the Pi. But this is your thread and it is about the best.

I appreciate your effort!

For myself I work on a much simpler and more affordable version that hopefully meets my expectations (DCDC reg free Pi, Mezzanine Power + LT1083 and later LifePO4). My Kali/Piano2.1 is playing very, very well in this setup. Will see how Katana behaves and I have only to add a qood +-15V.

Ernst
 
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@ernesternest,

Thanks for your response. I got it. AND I am sorry I didn't take it in the spirit you intended.

I think the setup you described is the basis for a VERY good sounding Katana setup. If you add the Isolator, using a 2nd (and possibly a 3rd) good 5V supply for the Isolator / Katana / Microprocessor board stack, and a good +-15V supply should give you a very high-performing setup.

2 LiFePO4 COULD be used in series with float charging for the 5V supplies... see threads over at TirNaHiFi.org on this. BUT as they point out there, running the LiFePO4 cells at 2.5V each does not have them in their sweet spot. For an alternative, see Ian's thread where he posts the schematic he used for his Ultracap trial boards:

Develop ultra capacitor power supply and LiFePO4 battery power supply

I am using one to power the DAC board of an RPi -> Isolator -> Kali -> Ian's prototype ES9028Q2M board stack and it is sounding very good. I am warming it up for a comparison with my Katana setup, hopefully can report sometime this weekend.

I have not tried the Katana on one of my DC-DC-free RPi setups using ldovr.com's Mezzanine boards yet, but based on what I heard from every other setup I tried them in, that will produce another lift in sound quality.

Greg in Mississippi
 
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@drgnanam,

Thanks for your response. Again, I started this thread to explore getting the BEST out of the Katana. Many of the 5V supplies I have mentioned here COULD be used for a 3 supply Katana setup (5V RPi / Isolator input, 5V Isolator output / DAC board / Microprocessor board, +-15V Opamp board). BUT if you omit either the Isolator OR the +-15V supply, your 5V supply's current requirements go up significantly and you either have to spend a lot more on that supply or accept a lower-quality supply... or both. AND at that point you aren't going to get the 'BEST' out of a Katana... off-topic for this thread, feel free to post in the main Allo thread or start a new one on general Katana power options.

I DID update the 1st post with a list of sources for various supplies including the Salas Ultra BiB, which I also mentioned in post #19. I DO believe a well-setup Salas Ultra-BiB power supply setup would be about as good as anything out there. BUT it would ultimately not be inexpensive.

I discussed my experience with the Silent Switcher in posts #10 & #19. Based on my experiences with it on a stock Dial DAC, it would not be a good supply if you want even good sound from your Katana.

Finally Ian's LiFePO4 supply is designed to provide 5V for the RPi, 2 3.3V rails for the DAC and associated digital processing cards, and +-13.2V for an output stage. You could not use it without seriously modifying the Katana to bypass their regulators. Do-able, but a significant project with a good chance of trashing the Katana.

I hope this helps.

Greg in Mississippi
 
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@soundcheck,

First, the Katana IS a DIY offering, as are ALL of the available RPi DAC hats (though some sources package them as turn-key products with power supplies, cases, and appropriate software). As such, it is entirely appropriate to look at various DIY power supply options. Allo DOES offer supplies today. They have said they are working to offer additional supplies in the future. No need to keep bringing that up over and over again!

Second, again, I started this thread as the "Getting the best out of Allo.com's new Katana DAC..." thread. As such, I am focused on the best configuration (as both stated by Allo and in my experiences with the DAC) AND very high-quality supplies and over-performing lower-cost supplies. You are free to start your own thread on lower-performing supplies. I promise I won't come and troll you there! Discussions of those options are off-topic here. Discussions 2nd-guessing what Allo should and shouldn't do are also off-topic here, have them in the main Allo thread, which is why I moved my response to your previous post there. If you don't think that is appropriate, again, start your own thread to discuss what you perceive as Allo's failure. It is not on-topic here! Please review the forum rules.

Third, you have repeatedly, in multiple threads, stated your opinion that my approach to power supplies is 'nonsense'. I got it as does everyone else who reads these threads. Continuing to do so as we try to discuss this topic is both off-topic AND disruptive and begins to hedge on harassment. Again, please review the forum rules.

Finally, sharing your thoughts on the best RPi HW, networking configuration and HW, OS, and player software is very much on topic here and again, is an area in which you are an expert. Not everyone will want to spent the time to review all of your blog posts to glean that knowledge. Or they may not have the background to digest it all. Share your suggestions, tweaks, and customizations. That is totally on-topic here!

Greg in Mississippi
 
You are free to start your own thread on lower-performing supplies

Who says lower performing!?!? What do you know what I am talking about?
What is lower performing? Any measurements taken? (Of course not)

I'm talking about adequate supplies. I am talking about turning on the brain and trying to understand what I am doing and what's the actual problem is. I don't have to buy $400 Uptone supplies, that you like so much, to power an RPI. This is DIY-Audio and not Computer Audiophile.


you have repeatedly, in multiple threads, stated your opinion that my approach to power supplies is 'nonsense'.

I said $1000 on a 250$ DAC I consider nonsense in the two Katana threads. Yep, "multiple" sounds better and bigger and sounds really bad doesn't it.
Don't make the whole story bigger as it is. And then it's been you who started that crossposting and all this whining.

And yes, I still think $1000 on PS for a $250 DAC is nonsense and overkill. And I'm sure 99.9% out of 1000 will agree to that. That's nothing personal btw.


Finally, sharing your thoughts on the best RPi HW, networking configuration and HW, OS, and player software is very much on topic here and again, is an area in which you are an expert. Not everyone will want to spent the time to review all of your blog posts to glean that knowledge. Or they may not have the background to digest it all. Share your suggestions, tweaks, and customizations. That is totally on-topic here!

Look. I wrote a blog so that I have it all structured in one place. I use it myself. It's just too complex to spread crumbs here and there. People can follow step by step what's to be done from my perspective. If they don't like it they search somewhere else. Fair enough.

When it comes to being expert in something. If buying (or getting for free) all kind of audio gadgets out there makes you an expert. Yes, I'm probably not high up an that list.
When it comes to HW I very well understand what's going on. That much that I don't have to try everything. Still I did try a lot. As you know I do have a solid engineering background. That helps from time to time.

Enjoy.
 
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Klaus, I've said what I want and need to say on this. Your last post is only worth a reply to say I don't need to say anything more. We disagree and don't need to pursue this any further. If you continued to clutter this thread with off-topic and irrelevant posts along with name-calling and demeaning comments, I'll just start reporting posts.

Greg in MIssissippi
 
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@fabio1068,

Good question. Often regulators that work well for digital circuits may not work as well for analog circuits and vice-versa.

I don't have direct experience with these units for digital circuits. BUT they are similar to ones I have used personally for analog circuits (CD Player output stage regulators) and I know they performed well there. So for the +-15V supply, I think they'd be a good bet. The main thing there (and with all of the supplies) is to get them as close as possible to the powered circuit to minimize losses in the connecting cables.

Later in the DIYAudio thread you linked, several posts within the last year liked this supply powering digital circuits and bettering Salas Reflector-D's and Uptone Audio LPS-1's. These are high levels of praise and based on that, I'd suggest going for it for the 2 5V supplies too.

AND the transformers are similar to what I used for my +-15V supply AND what I would like to use for my 5V supplies IF I had more room.

Just my 2 cents. AND the price is very good!

I will be interested to hear your impressions after you get it going!

Greg in Mississippi
 
If you continued to clutter this thread with off-topic and irrelevant posts along with name-calling and demeaning comments, I'll just start reporting posts.

Just to clarify your purposely wrong accusations.

1. I'm not "name-calling" anybody. Calling a presented solution nonsense is something completely different.

I even explained it and showed an alternative solution. Some call it constructive feedback or an open discussion.

2. If you take that personal and even demeaning that's your problem.

3. The technical discussion is all but off- topic. It's just a different opinion.

4. Good luck in reporting my posts. Just go ahead. You'll face another disappointment.


And just to say it once more. I never questioned your solution in terms of soundquality.
How could I !?!?

And please stop twisting your storyline everytime I or anybody else is calling you out on something. Following all that up gets kind of annoying.

And now. I'm gone. You can finally hang up your hankie for drying.

Unsubscribed!
 
The way it looks from here is that soundcheck has been rude and insulting to Greg over and over again while Greg has tried to be a polite and reasonable as possible. Other people would probably speak up too besides like what I am doing right now, but they would not want to have to put up with the abusive behavior of soundcheck directed against themselves. I hope the moderators will take a careful look in this thread and in the Allo vendor thread and take appropriate steps to enforce the rules so that the forum can be a place for civil technical discussions rather than uncalled for personal attacks. So far as I can see from looking at the threads, Greg has never done anything to soundcheck, it has always been soundcheck attacking and demeaning Greg for no apparent reason.
 
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Rude ? Insulting ? ....Getting warmer but smug and insufferable also pop into mind and there's that fantastic word the Brits & Aussies wear the hell out of to describe such guys...just on the tip of my tongue...
Anyways, thank you sincerely Greg from the 0.1% gang, I love following what you do since Im also trying to cobble together a system ( Rpi w Ians' hats, all of Ian's boards and bits, Red Baron dac & Tubeizator, Swenson regs & Salas supplies etc), so your posts are a nice guide to have along the way.
 
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:cop:

Lets keep this civil and on topic please.

This thread invites opinions and as such you have to be aware that some replies may not agree with your own point of view.

This is also a good opportunity to be reminded of how to make proper use of the forum 'quote' function, which simply put means that any quotes you make should be attributed to the original author, and this applies even more so when any such quotes are from an entirely different thread.
 
The way it looks from here is that soundcheck has been rude and insulting to Greg over and over again while Greg has tried to be a polite and reasonable as possible. Other people would probably speak up too besides like what I am doing right now, but they would not want to have to put up with the abusive behavior of soundcheck directed against themselves. I hope the moderators will take a careful look in this thread and in the Allo vendor thread and take appropriate steps to enforce the rules so that the forum can be a place for civil technical discussions rather than uncalled for personal attacks. So far as I can see from looking at the threads, Greg has never done anything to soundcheck, it has always been soundcheck attacking and demeaning Greg for no apparent reason.

Agreed. I don’t like blocking people but sound check is very close to it. Arrogance and rudeness do indeed clutter the thread.
 
Turning back to the subject of Katana power supplies, I would like to suggest I an idea. I don't currently have everything I would need to test it, but here is the idea. As far as all the 5v supplies go, they can probably be run from one transformer and one rectifier bank. Rectifiers should be ultra-soft turn-off types. Regulators can be LT3042 w/pass transistor boards from China. If the output stage is run from an analog +-15v supply, probably no reason why the MCU and isolator boards cannot share a regulator. The Katana board should probably have its own. A number of people have reported disappointment using LDO regulators for dacs. One likely problem has to do with LF noise. Attached below is a schematic from one of the LDO datasheets showing the recommended configuration for ultra low LF noise. One such reference could probably work with multiple LT304x regulators.

For the +-15v supply there are various options. It is possible to use LT304x regulators for that, but maybe not the best idea. What I use for my modded ES9038Q2M is one of these, with extra, very low ESR output filter caps: Ultra-low Noise Adjustable +/-15V DC Voltage Regulator Module, LT1963A LT3015. 6921407430679 | eBay
The output caps I add are 10,000uf, .053ohm ESR, which help a lot.

The big filter caps for +-15v, and the LT304x regulators should probably be located very near the loads, and use short length heavy gauge wires (since the sense pins for the regulator chips won't extend out to the load).

Seems like the cost of doing something like the above, including transformers, should be doable for maybe $200.

In order to be in a position to try out the 5v part of the suggested approach I would need to wait for one of these LTC665 boards to arrive: MLT - LTC6655 Voltage Reference from MLT - Maleetronic on Tindie After that gets here, I have a couple of LT3042 w/pass transistor supplies I could use. Have to figure out the transformer though. I have one with two 9v, 1A windings that might do, and the LDOs could be kept cool if I use a variac on the input. All I can say is that if I end up having the energy and motivation to go through with it and if it works as I expect, cdsgames can buy me dinner.
 

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Thanks Mooly for the reminder of forum rules and to keep things civil and on-topic.

AND thanks to Markw4 for bringing us back on-topic! Interesting exploration of novel power supply configurations to get more bang for less buck!

Me, I've been definitely less inventive and more 'practical' minded. I've been focusing on answering Markw4's (and @matthiasw too!) two questions... how does the Kali compare to my other top-quality DIY DAC setups AND how does it sound powered by theoretically less-capable power supply setups?

I've been listening to one of those other 'top quality DIY DAC setups', Ian's prototype ES9028Q2M in a RPi -> IsolatorPi -> Kali -> DAC -> Onetics 600R:600R transformers with Rasmussen-styled filtering for the last few days with a couple of power setups. Best power so far has remained the same as before, 3 Uptone Audio LPS-1/1.2's, with a 1.2 each for the IsolatorPi and Kali and the 1 on the DAC. Each supply has an additional buffer... the IsolatorPi and Kali are each fed through 1/2 of a 5V OPC 4||LT3042 board, the DAC board has a a pair of 325F/2.7V Ultracaps in series charged to 3.3V that is directly-connected to the DAC board without any additional regulation except for the 1.2V rail. NOte those Ultracaps will power the DAC for awhile without the charging LPS-1 connected. I'm not quite ready to share what I'm hearing, but this setup and my reference Katana setup are very close in most parameters.

I've also adding alternative power supply options. I'm putting a pair of modified 12V/1A Jameco Linear Regulated wall warts in the mix. They'll be feeding either the same 5V OPC or Stammheim X||LT304x regulator boards as above or for a lower-cost option, more basic (LT3080/LT3083) 5V regulators.

My alternate supply list is now:
- Basic supplies... 2 5V iFi iPower (if I can borrow a 2nd from someone, I'm not going to buy another!) OR 2 basic Allo 5V supplies (if I can borrow those) OR 2 modified Jameco 5V/1A linear regulated wall warts.
- Good supplies... 2 modified Jameco 12V/1A linear regulated wall warts OR my raw DC supplies as outlined in an early post, with either feeding basic (LT3080/3083) 5V regulators.
- Great supplies... 2 Uptone Audio LPS-1.2's feeding 5V directly. OR feeding the more sophisticated 5V OPC or Stammheim X||LT304x regulator boards from either 2 modified Jameco 12V/1A OR my raw DC supplies as outlined above OR 2-4 Uptone Audio LPS-1.2.
- Alternative supplies... 2 5V direct Ultracap supplies float-charged from the modified Jameco 12V/1A linear regulated wall warts OR Uptone Audio LPS-1s/1.2s.
- TBD supplies... Nirvana and/or whatever else Allo ultimately releases for the Katana, assuming I can borrow one.
- Downgrade potential... all of the above using 1 instead of 2 5V supplies for the Katana DAC / Isolator / Microprocessor boards.

AND for now, I'll keep my +-15V supply constant for all of the above options. I placed an order for a few components I needed to finish preparing the 5V direct Ultracap supplies and the 12V/1A Jameco's. The parts should be in his week and I should have those supplies ready over the weekend.

The other twist I'm adding is to try these alternative supplies powering my other top DAC setups where they work ok. This is to both get a better feel (broader set of experiences) for how those alternative supplies compare... and maybe even learn some new combinations that work better than I expected, such as unexpectedly finding my AC-connected raw DC supplies beat my LPS-1/1.2 setups powering the Katana!

In the meantime before I have more to report, here is a quick picture showing 2 modified 5V Jameco's on the left with a stock 12V unit on the right, as requested by @drpro. Note the significantly more beefy transformer in the 12V model.

IF this remains a good option, hopefully many out there can find equivalent units in their own AC voltage and plug configurations.

Greg in Mississippi
 

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