I've designed Streamer hardware based on Rpi and have been testing various software solutions - of the solutions we tested (Volumio, moOde, Max2Play) OpenHome seems the most stable and professional but it does not appear very popular - I was just wondering why?
I'd be interested in feedback on OpenHome or suggestions about other players...
Our Audio hardware is connected to the RPi via USB...
I'd be interested in feedback on OpenHome or suggestions about other players...
Our Audio hardware is connected to the RPi via USB...
Because they don't put any effort into it. I looked at it because I was using Bubbleupnp (with its remote playlists and grapples playback) but they have a really old version of a client on their site and nothing more.
I think they tried to put the additional features in the dlna spec but got rejected and that was the end of that.
I think they tried to put the additional features in the dlna spec but got rejected and that was the end of that.
Thank you for your reply - can you explain what you feel is lacking with OpenHome?
I'm asking as it was the only software we tried that did not crash or freeze within the first 5 minutes of use - it just works...
I'm old school and still prefere physical media, but the world is moving on and I need to find a solution that I can offer with my designs.
I tried Volumio but it was NOT initiative - you have whole screen with only 3 main areas:-
1. Track playback contorls
2. Album Art
3. Volume contorl
The trouble that you really dont know what its doing and its really unresponsive, it seems to be based on the concept of a playback list, but I just want it work work like a CD player - I'm playing a track, then play the next track on the album... what really frustrates me is its lack of responsiveness...
I have a basic test - "The 5 minute test" that is to work with the features in the software and see if it works without crashing or freezing or encountering a bug... Volumio is a disaster in this area...
moOde atleast has a "Track list" on the main screen, so you know whats playing and whats next, and you can step around the track list, its much more stable and responsive then Volumio but lacks really important features such as Roon and Spotify...
OpenHome seems to work ok with the Spofity App, does not crash... just does what it should do... so I wonder what I'm missing?
Are there other software options I should consider?
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Well it passes my 5 minute test (OpenHome) - that is to try its features without encountering a bug, crash, freeze or other odd behavior.... It "just" works....
Volumio was the must unstable and unresponsive we tested... moOdes ok but lacks streaming services support....
I think Volumio is a great solution IF it was more stable and was more responsive.... it really (and ANY software) needs to give the user feedback - EVEN if requires time to process the requested action, the software needs to let the user know its responding to there input.... with Volumio you click things and nothing seems to happen... then in its own time it well respond - but that not to guarantee it does what you expect it to do....
I hate to feel that I'm being left behind, but is it really that hard to have software responsive and stable?
If my hardware designs where so unstable and unresponsive I'd quit being a designer - it be a total failure, so how come we allow software to be so bad?
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Keep in mind that all of these players/systems do a lot of stuff in the background after you do the initial setup, like scanning your music library, some update themselves, some need to compile the pages you see the first time you visit them. Maybe try letting them sit for a bit after you install and set them up before you do your test?
Also, the types like Volumio that have browser based UI are very sensitive to issues with bad wifi and slow tablets/phones vs. ones that use an app/client like Roon. If you're running on a Raspberry Pi then you should definitely try to wire it to your network.
And if OpenHome works for you then use that, just don't be too surprised if you don't get any support or fixes when Spotify changes their APIs and it stops working.
I use Roon myself, it looks like Daphile is gaining popularity so I might try that as well.
As for the main page, you can always bookmark the albums page for Volumio and go straight there, others would sometimes allow you to select what is the start page, almost all of them have the playlist/queue model that allows you to pick all the music you want to play and just enjoy listening rather than having to "change a CD" after 45 min
Also, the types like Volumio that have browser based UI are very sensitive to issues with bad wifi and slow tablets/phones vs. ones that use an app/client like Roon. If you're running on a Raspberry Pi then you should definitely try to wire it to your network.
And if OpenHome works for you then use that, just don't be too surprised if you don't get any support or fixes when Spotify changes their APIs and it stops working.
I use Roon myself, it looks like Daphile is gaining popularity so I might try that as well.
As for the main page, you can always bookmark the albums page for Volumio and go straight there, others would sometimes allow you to select what is the start page, almost all of them have the playlist/queue model that allows you to pick all the music you want to play and just enjoy listening rather than having to "change a CD" after 45 min
...and with Moode, Volumio, Rune.. types of RPi OS I had one major issue from time to time - turning the streamer off improper way (not through inbuild "Shut Off" button in WEB UI, but by HW switch on power supply) gave me some corruption of SDcard running the OS and the whole system booted strangely then. ...if even booted. I would not want to see that on commercial product.
If I remember correctly, DietPi and pCP run fully on internal RAM, are highly customizable, automatically updating... Try to get in touch with pCP development
News - piCorePlayer
or Daniel Knight
DietPi - Lightweight justice for your SBC
asking what could they offer for your project.
If I remember correctly, DietPi and pCP run fully on internal RAM, are highly customizable, automatically updating... Try to get in touch with pCP development
News - piCorePlayer
or Daniel Knight
DietPi - Lightweight justice for your SBC
asking what could they offer for your project.
I don't think your experience with Volumio is typical. I have used it on my RPi3B for some time and didn't find it to be slow or unstable. Based on forum posts by other Volumio users my experience seems to be much more typical. If you are having those problems then something isn't right. Perhaps your installation didn't go cleanly. If you want to give Volumio another try then I would suggest that you start with a clean installation on a good quality SD card.
As for OpenHome I have never tried it but I have used UPnP and I am just not a fan. I simply like other solutions better. If it works for you and and you like the UI, then great, use that.
I have tried most Pi based music players Volumio, Moode, PiCorePlayer, DietPi, Max2Play and even the old Rune (not Roon). I found that they all worked fine but none of them were perfect. They were all missing some feature that I would have liked to have or did something in way that I didn't care for. They all have different UIs and they all take some time to get used to (personally I don't think 5 minutes will do it). IMO there is no one "Best" solution for everyone. My advice is to try them all and pick the one that fits you best.
I use PiCorePlayer the most. I like the Logitech Media Server system ( I have other Logitech players) better than Bubble UPnP. It's UI is dated but it has a killer iOS app called iPeng. It gives me the greatest number of streaming choices (Spotify, Pandora, Tidal, etc.) But it is definitely not a 5 minute set up and play situation. It is not hard but it does take some time to get everything setup.
As for OpenHome I have never tried it but I have used UPnP and I am just not a fan. I simply like other solutions better. If it works for you and and you like the UI, then great, use that.
I have tried most Pi based music players Volumio, Moode, PiCorePlayer, DietPi, Max2Play and even the old Rune (not Roon). I found that they all worked fine but none of them were perfect. They were all missing some feature that I would have liked to have or did something in way that I didn't care for. They all have different UIs and they all take some time to get used to (personally I don't think 5 minutes will do it). IMO there is no one "Best" solution for everyone. My advice is to try them all and pick the one that fits you best.
I use PiCorePlayer the most. I like the Logitech Media Server system ( I have other Logitech players) better than Bubble UPnP. It's UI is dated but it has a killer iOS app called iPeng. It gives me the greatest number of streaming choices (Spotify, Pandora, Tidal, etc.) But it is definitely not a 5 minute set up and play situation. It is not hard but it does take some time to get everything setup.
Jim,
Thank you for your reply, I'd just like to clarify that my "5 minute test" is NOT in reference to getting to learn a software in 5 minutes (It be crazy to expect that from any advanced software), but if you can use a piece of software for 5 minutes trying its various features WITHOUT finding Bugs, crashes, freezes or other odd behavior....
We have a few projects on the go that are based on Volumio so I'm not referring to a single install or single test platform, so your words are comforting and I really hope that the stability can be improved, but at the moment I'm really really down about it...
For my designs we use eMMC memory for greater speed and robustness - having an SDcard internal to a product is a little Micky Mouse IMO and just asking for longerterm reliability problems with contacts...
It does seem that many people I've asked recommend LMS and although it has an older UI (Actually its was very intuitive to me on a SBT, and I don't have a problem with it).
About the only streaming product I ever used was the Logitech SBT (I just used it for radio stations (BBC) so never installed the LMS server) - but it worked without crashing, was fast and responsive so maybe the is the route I should follow for my streaming hardware...
What I really like about Logitech player is that you can connect a touch panel to the RPI hardware - I REALLY like the idea of local display and control... I don't even have a smart phone, hate the things and only borrow one when I travel...
Do you know if the PiCorePlayer can be installed with just 4GB memory - with local UI? (the is the standard eMMC Memory size of the RPi CM3 modules).
Thank you for your reply, I'd just like to clarify that my "5 minute test" is NOT in reference to getting to learn a software in 5 minutes (It be crazy to expect that from any advanced software), but if you can use a piece of software for 5 minutes trying its various features WITHOUT finding Bugs, crashes, freezes or other odd behavior....
We have a few projects on the go that are based on Volumio so I'm not referring to a single install or single test platform, so your words are comforting and I really hope that the stability can be improved, but at the moment I'm really really down about it...
For my designs we use eMMC memory for greater speed and robustness - having an SDcard internal to a product is a little Micky Mouse IMO and just asking for longerterm reliability problems with contacts...
It does seem that many people I've asked recommend LMS and although it has an older UI (Actually its was very intuitive to me on a SBT, and I don't have a problem with it).
About the only streaming product I ever used was the Logitech SBT (I just used it for radio stations (BBC) so never installed the LMS server) - but it worked without crashing, was fast and responsive so maybe the is the route I should follow for my streaming hardware...
What I really like about Logitech player is that you can connect a touch panel to the RPI hardware - I REALLY like the idea of local display and control... I don't even have a smart phone, hate the things and only borrow one when I travel...
Do you know if the PiCorePlayer can be installed with just 4GB memory - with local UI? (the is the standard eMMC Memory size of the RPi CM3 modules).
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Keep in mind that all of these players/systems do a lot of stuff in the background after you do the initial setup, like scanning your music library, some update themselves, some need to compile the pages you see the first time you visit them. Maybe try letting them sit for a bit after you install and set them up before you do your test?
Also, the types like Volumio that have browser based UI are very sensitive to issues with bad wifi and slow tablets/phones vs. ones that use an app/client like Roon. If you're running on a Raspberry Pi then you should definitely try to wire it to your network.
And if OpenHome works for you then use that, just don't be too surprised if you don't get any support or fixes when Spotify changes their APIs and it stops working.
I use Roon myself, it looks like Daphile is gaining popularity so I might try that as well.
As for the main page, you can always bookmark the albums page for Volumio and go straight there, others would sometimes allow you to select what is the start page, almost all of them have the playlist/queue model that allows you to pick all the music you want to play and just enjoy listening rather than having to "change a CD" after 45 min
I tried to speak with Roon at last years Munich show but they had a really stuck up attitude and I cannot get me head around all the various blocks. I also would prefer to have a solution that run out of the box WITHOUT needing a separate server... or needing to pay a mandatory subscription...!
If Roon's at Munich show this year, I'll try again... but its hard to get past that initial encounter.
I'm leaning towards LMS I guess... as SBT "Just" worked for me many years ago...
IMO an embedded linux solution should always use read-only mounted root filesystem, be it by any of the options available in linux. Even journal-based filesystems (ext4) are not 100% immune to file corruption at power outage.
From this POW I like debian-based linux voyage (only x86/amd64) which mounts the filesystem RO and binds a few changeable dirs (with e.g. mpd database) in ramdisk (tmpfs). Upon proper shutdown it remounts the root filesystem rw and synchronizes these dirs. If the root FS needs to be changed (adding packages, changing config etc.), a simple command remounts / to RW and full system is available. Simple, easy to debug.
True, the shutdown synchronization time is prone to corruption :-(
From this POW I like debian-based linux voyage (only x86/amd64) which mounts the filesystem RO and binds a few changeable dirs (with e.g. mpd database) in ramdisk (tmpfs). Upon proper shutdown it remounts the root filesystem rw and synchronizes these dirs. If the root FS needs to be changed (adding packages, changing config etc.), a simple command remounts / to RW and full system is available. Simple, easy to debug.
True, the shutdown synchronization time is prone to corruption :-(
Obviously you want to use one of these OSes commercially!
You better do the homework by yourself!
I do understand very well that you build your HW and then prefer to
piggyback on open source freeware.
Selling the HW and offering SW free of charge. Great approach!
You're not the first one acting like that. And you'll not be the first one failing
because of that.
Without having a clue about Linux you better stay away from that project!
That's an advise!
Without having a clue about Linux, bashing non-commercial community members on potential instabilities or design choices that doesn't fit your business ideas I don't consider appropriate either.
If you run into issues talk to these folks. And try to contribute in solving
the issues, potentially even your issues only! And don't forget to tell them that you want to run their OS commercially!
Another advise. Before focusing on piCorePlayer you better understand what's running under the hood of pCP!
Good luck with your project.
You better do the homework by yourself!
I do understand very well that you build your HW and then prefer to
piggyback on open source freeware.
Selling the HW and offering SW free of charge. Great approach!
You're not the first one acting like that. And you'll not be the first one failing
because of that.
Without having a clue about Linux you better stay away from that project!
That's an advise!
Without having a clue about Linux, bashing non-commercial community members on potential instabilities or design choices that doesn't fit your business ideas I don't consider appropriate either.
If you run into issues talk to these folks. And try to contribute in solving
the issues, potentially even your issues only! And don't forget to tell them that you want to run their OS commercially!
Another advise. Before focusing on piCorePlayer you better understand what's running under the hood of pCP!
Good luck with your project.
The idea is to have 'Open hardware" so that the user can install which ever streamer software they wish.
The communication APi is published so that the more advance features can be implemented - but not necessary for operation (such as current / Voltage monitoring of the USB ports etc).
I'm sorry you got the idea that I want to free load off open source software - nothing further from the truth - I'd be happy to pay for a stable software solution, but I'm little more then a one man operation and for this situation there are no options available that I'm aware off - but I'd gladly hear otherwise.
The streamer PCB development has been "Group sponsored" by loyal owners of my older designs - Today most people would like to dip there toes into the world of streaming and try an audiophile streamer solution (Bit accurate, support HiRes + DSD & with DAC as clock master) - but commercially available options are either unaffordable and or based on a closed ecosystem.
While I can design hardware until the cows come home - I cannot find a suitable software partner hence my questions here.
Offer me a royaltie based software solution (Payment per unit sold) and we would not be having this conversion...
As I cannot find such a solution, the only choice available is for the customer to install there open source software of choice - but obviously I'd like to be in a position to be able to recommend "tested" options - and provide the dt-blob and drivers...
I'm retired now and am dabbling as a "retirement hobby" - not with grand plans of commercial profit... I'd not be posting here openly if this was the case! - I'm sorry for triggering your rather aggressive post. If you wish to meet me in person to discuss it further, I'll be attending the Munich HiFi show next month - I'd be interested to see if you remain so aggressive.
I don't agree with your comment "Without having a clue about Linux you better stay away from that project That's an advise!" - my function is to design the hardware and leave the software to those who know better! Without hardware there's no need for software and vasa versa....
And thank you for wishing luck with the project - I do hope that the project development sponsors well indeed be happy with the hardware!
The communication APi is published so that the more advance features can be implemented - but not necessary for operation (such as current / Voltage monitoring of the USB ports etc).
I'm sorry you got the idea that I want to free load off open source software - nothing further from the truth - I'd be happy to pay for a stable software solution, but I'm little more then a one man operation and for this situation there are no options available that I'm aware off - but I'd gladly hear otherwise.
The streamer PCB development has been "Group sponsored" by loyal owners of my older designs - Today most people would like to dip there toes into the world of streaming and try an audiophile streamer solution (Bit accurate, support HiRes + DSD & with DAC as clock master) - but commercially available options are either unaffordable and or based on a closed ecosystem.
While I can design hardware until the cows come home - I cannot find a suitable software partner hence my questions here.
Offer me a royaltie based software solution (Payment per unit sold) and we would not be having this conversion...
As I cannot find such a solution, the only choice available is for the customer to install there open source software of choice - but obviously I'd like to be in a position to be able to recommend "tested" options - and provide the dt-blob and drivers...
I'm retired now and am dabbling as a "retirement hobby" - not with grand plans of commercial profit... I'd not be posting here openly if this was the case! - I'm sorry for triggering your rather aggressive post. If you wish to meet me in person to discuss it further, I'll be attending the Munich HiFi show next month - I'd be interested to see if you remain so aggressive.
I don't agree with your comment "Without having a clue about Linux you better stay away from that project That's an advise!" - my function is to design the hardware and leave the software to those who know better! Without hardware there's no need for software and vasa versa....
And thank you for wishing luck with the project - I do hope that the project development sponsors well indeed be happy with the hardware!
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"I don't agree with your comment "Without having a clue about Linux you better stay away from that project That's an advise!" "
You don't have to agree. You actually can't. Because you don't have the experience.
That's my experience from years working in that area.
* I worked with RPI, I worked with other SBCs.
Why is RPI successful? The rather mediocre HW is not the reason. That's well known!
It's about the HW+"inhouse"-SW.
* I worked with Audiophonics (no SW know-how), I worked with Allo (HW&SW experts) - Who do you think is doing better?
* and more examples
I predict your project will fail sooner or later if you don't want to get your hands "dirty" on the SW part. And that is a known fact.
I also predict you'll have serious issues finding somebody supporting you.
The SW part (design and maintenance and management) actually is much more demanding than a little one-off HW cooking.
Good luck with your project.
You don't have to agree. You actually can't. Because you don't have the experience.
That's my experience from years working in that area.
* I worked with RPI, I worked with other SBCs.
Why is RPI successful? The rather mediocre HW is not the reason. That's well known!
It's about the HW+"inhouse"-SW.
* I worked with Audiophonics (no SW know-how), I worked with Allo (HW&SW experts) - Who do you think is doing better?
* and more examples
I predict your project will fail sooner or later if you don't want to get your hands "dirty" on the SW part. And that is a known fact.
I also predict you'll have serious issues finding somebody supporting you.
The SW part (design and maintenance and management) actually is much more demanding than a little one-off HW cooking.
Good luck with your project.
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