Equalizer APO, REW and Rephase WOW!

[33Polkhigh]

Also the receiver shouldn't be doing anything except amplifying the four channels from the PC. So you will probably need two receivers. Set them in basic stereo mode and volume match them. Its easier if you just have a couple of the same chip amps.

 

[dlwearl]

I'm using a separate HDMI input from my pc to drive the speakers, so the amplification will only be for one device.

The Pioneer has a "7ch stereo" setting that (should) allow for all 7 channels to be used in stereo, but that is where I have run into inconsistent operation, especially with the preamp parts in EqAPO. Some of them work no problem - on the L and R channels, for instance - but others simply do not work at all.

Would you mind posting screenshots of your complete setup, or posting the config file so I can look at it?

Thanks for your replies!

David

 

[33Polkhigh]

I'm using a separate HDMI input from my pc to drive the speakers, so the amplification will only be for one device.

The Pioneer has a "7ch stereo" setting that (should) allow for all 7 channels to be used in stereo, but that is where I have run into inconsistent operation, especially with the preamp parts in EqAPO. Some of them work no problem - on the L and R channels, for instance - but others simply do not work at all.

Would you mind posting screenshots of your complete setup, or posting the config file so I can look at it?

Thanks for your replies!

David

Hi, you shouldn't be using hdmi at all. Its digital and won't transmit the signal properly. You should be using your PC as the source, and then the analog outputs from the soundcard connected to the analog inputs on the two amps. (Stereo 1/8" jacks to RCA is the connectors you probably need).

You need more than one receiver because basically almost none of them can amplify two different signals at the same time. Both receivers should be in stereo mode.

Heres the config but theres some extra stuff in there that you don't need (i use it to test the channels)

Copy: L=R R=L RL=RR RR=RL
Copy: L=L+RL R=R+RR
Copy: RL=L RR=R
Channel: RL
# Preamp: 0.2 dB
GraphicEQ: 25 -80; 980 -80; 990 -3; 1000 0; 1500 3; 1800 -4; 2400 0; 3000 -2; 3300 0; 4200 -2.5; 5900 1; 6500 0; 9500 5; 17000 4; 18000 -95
# Filter: ON LP Fc 20 Hz
Channel: RR
# Preamp: 0.2 dB
GraphicEQ: 25 -80; 980 -80; 990 -3; 1000 0; 1500 3; 1800 -4; 2400 0; 3000 -2; 3300 0; 4200 -2.5; 5900 1; 6500 0; 9500 5; 17000 4; 18000 -95
# Filter: ON LP Fc 20.85 Hz
Channel: L
# Preamp: -0.2 dB
GraphicEQ: 20 -95; 25 0; 980 0; 990 -3; 1000 -95
# Filter: ON HP Fc 20000 Hz
Channel: R
# Preamp: -0.2 dB
GraphicEQ: 20 -95; 25 0; 980 0; 990 -3; 1000 -95
# Filter: ON HP Fc 18665.1 Hz
Channel: ALL
Preamp: 6.5 dB
GraphicEQ: 25 -7; 50 -7.25; 100 -7.5; 150 -5.5; 200 -4.5; 300 -3.75; 400 -4; 600 -6.5; 800 -8; 1000 -7.5

 

[jiiteepee]

Speaking of channel assignments, this, I think, is where the confusion is starting.

I have tried your program, but without success here too, perhaps because of the channels. My receiver uses the following names:

Front R
Front L
Center
Surround R
Surround L
Surround Back R
Surround Back L

Which numbers or letters do all of the surround channels map to in EqAPO?

Also, how do I add a preamplification to each channel independently? I would like to be able levels match each driver independently. I also have struggled to get this to work consistently.

Thanks,
David

There's a link in my prev post (code listing) to EqualizerAPO documentation where you can see the channel mapping software uses. If it does not solve all then just try each channel one-by-one by muting other cannels in config.txt.

 

[DonVK]

The Pioneer has a "7ch stereo" setting that (should) allow for all 7 channels to be used in stereo, but that is where I have run into inconsistent operation, especially with the preamp parts in EqAPO. Some of them work no problem - on the L and R channels, for instance - but others simply do not work at all.

David

My Yamaha also has a 7-ch stereo mode. It upmixes only the LR input channels to "create" the other output channels. If your Pioneer acts like this it will ignore everything but the LR inputs.

 

[HammerSandwich]

Copy: L=L+RL R=R+RR
Copy: RL=L RR=R

This mirrors the rear channels with the front.

I don't understand this.

If EQAPO's input is purely stereo (L & R), then the 1st line does nothing. OTOH, if RL & RR have different signals, how do they differ from L & R?

Also, remember to check final levels when combining signals as in the 1st line.

 

[33Polkhigh]

I don't understand this.

If EQAPO's input is purely stereo (L & R), then the 1st line does nothing. OTOH, if RL & RR have different signals, how do they differ from L & R?

Also, remember to check final levels when combining signals as in the 1st line.

The input isn't always stereo. What its doing is that if you have a source that's already been mixed into front and rear channels, its taking the rears and combining them with the fronts. So its forcing all the information into the front channels. This part does nothing when the source is stereo.

But then the back channels have to be exactly the same as the front so the next line makes the rears the same as the fronts. If you're doing a two way you need 2 identical channels per speaker.

 

[HammerSandwich]

Okay, so you're mixing quad down to stereo in EQAPO. What's the benefit of this as opposed to setting the PC to 2-channel & letting each program do its own mixdown?

 

[33Polkhigh]

Okay, so you're mixing quad down to stereo in EQAPO. What's the benefit of this as opposed to setting the PC to 2-channel & letting each program do its own mixdown?

I'm explaining how to use equalizer APO as a crossover, because in fact it can do a much better job than caps and coils.

You need 2 identical channels on the right and left. If you don't do this and force this for everything the PC plays then your speakers won't work. If you open netflix and some multi-channel stuff comes on it won't mess up the different channels, IOW its locked in stereo. I really could care less about watching some crap movie in surround sound anyways.

 

[33Polkhigh]

Also the souncard has to be set to multi-channel or it won't give you the extra channels (rl and rr) to work with.

 

[arcgotic]

one example from me, I do different the copy of channels..

#5,6 inalte , 7 si 8 medile
Copy: 1=R 2=L 3=L 4=R 5=-1*L 6=-1*R 7=L 8=R
#ob R
#Right
Channel: L
Convolution: 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav
#Delay: 18.2 ms
Delay: 0 ms
#Filter: ON PK Fc 42Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
#Filter: ON LP Fc 125 Hz
Preamp: 3 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB


#Sealed L
Channel: R
Convolution: 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav
Delay: 0 ms
#Filter: ON PK Fc 42Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
#Filter: ON LP Fc 125 Hz
Preamp: 3 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB


#Midbass Left, Center output, Main Input Y
Channel: C
#Delay: 19.2 ms
Delay: 45.7 ms
Filter: ON HS Fc 200 Hz Gain -19.0 dB
Filter: ON PK Fc 212Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 351Hz Gain -3 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 1275Hz Gain 7 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 980Hz Gain 4 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 734Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter: ON PK Fc 410Hz Gain 4 dB Q 4
Filter: ON PK Fc 2010Hz Gain 7 dB Q 7
Filter: ON HP Fc 100 Hz
#Butterworth 3 pt 1400 LeCleach
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 1.0
Preamp: 2 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

#Midbass Right, Center output, Main Input Y
Channel: SUB
#Delay: 19 ms
Delay: 45.5 ms
Filter: ON HS Fc 200 Hz Gain -19.0 dB
Filter: ON PK Fc 212Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 351Hz Gain -3 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 1275Hz Gain 7 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 980Hz Gain 4 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 734Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter: ON PK Fc 410Hz Gain 4 dB Q 4
Filter: ON PK Fc 2010Hz Gain 7 dB Q 7
Filter: ON HP Fc 100 Hz
#Butterworth 3 pt 1400 LeCleach
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 1.0
Preamp: 2 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

#Mid High, Side output. Surround input Y,
Channel: SL
Preamp: -100 dB

#Mid High, Side output. Surround input Y,
Channel: SR
Preamp: -100 dB


#Seas, Rear output, sub center input Y
#DE250
Channel: RL
#Delay: 19.03 ms
#delay lecleacl 1400hz 5.34cmdelay 0.1557ms
#Delay: 19.3957 ms
#Delay: 45.8957 ms
Delay: 45.9988 ms
#Butterworth 3 LeCleach 1400
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 1
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 1
Preamp: -8 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

#Seas, Rear output, sub center input Y
#DE250
Channel: RR
#Delay: 18.83 ms
#delay lecleacl 1400hz 5.34cmdelay 0.1557ms
#Delay: 19.1957 ms
Delay: 45.7988 ms
#Butterworth 3 LeCleach 1400
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 1
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 1
Preamp: -8 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

 

[33Polkhigh]

one example from me, I do different the copy of channels..

#5,6 inalte , 7 si 8 medile
Copy: 1=R 2=L 3=L 4=R 5=-1*L 6=-1*R 7=L 8=R
#ob R
#Right
Channel: L
Convolution: 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav
#Delay: 18.2 ms
Delay: 0 ms
#Filter: ON PK Fc 42Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
#Filter: ON LP Fc 125 Hz
Preamp: 3 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB


#Sealed L
Channel: R
Convolution: 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav
Delay: 0 ms
#Filter: ON PK Fc 42Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
#Filter: ON LP Fc 125 Hz
Preamp: 3 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB


#Midbass Left, Center output, Main Input Y
Channel: C
#Delay: 19.2 ms
Delay: 45.7 ms
Filter: ON HS Fc 200 Hz Gain -19.0 dB
Filter: ON PK Fc 212Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 351Hz Gain -3 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 1275Hz Gain 7 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 980Hz Gain 4 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 734Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter: ON PK Fc 410Hz Gain 4 dB Q 4
Filter: ON PK Fc 2010Hz Gain 7 dB Q 7
Filter: ON HP Fc 100 Hz
#Butterworth 3 pt 1400 LeCleach
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 1.0
Preamp: 2 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

#Midbass Right, Center output, Main Input Y
Channel: SUB
#Delay: 19 ms
Delay: 45.5 ms
Filter: ON HS Fc 200 Hz Gain -19.0 dB
Filter: ON PK Fc 212Hz Gain -6 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 351Hz Gain -3 dB Q 10
Filter: ON PK Fc 1275Hz Gain 7 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 980Hz Gain 4 dB Q 6
Filter: ON PK Fc 734Hz Gain 3 dB Q 8
Filter: ON PK Fc 410Hz Gain 4 dB Q 4
Filter: ON PK Fc 2010Hz Gain 7 dB Q 7
Filter: ON HP Fc 100 Hz
#Butterworth 3 pt 1400 LeCleach
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 1222 Hz Q 1.0
Preamp: 2 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

#Mid High, Side output. Surround input Y,
Channel: SL
Preamp: -100 dB

#Mid High, Side output. Surround input Y,
Channel: SR
Preamp: -100 dB


#Seas, Rear output, sub center input Y
#DE250
Channel: RL
#Delay: 19.03 ms
#delay lecleacl 1400hz 5.34cmdelay 0.1557ms
#Delay: 19.3957 ms
#Delay: 45.8957 ms
Delay: 45.9988 ms
#Butterworth 3 LeCleach 1400
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 1
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 1
Preamp: -8 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

#Seas, Rear output, sub center input Y
#DE250
Channel: RR
#Delay: 18.83 ms
#delay lecleacl 1400hz 5.34cmdelay 0.1557ms
#Delay: 19.1957 ms
Delay: 45.7988 ms
#Butterworth 3 LeCleach 1400
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON HPQ Fc 1604 Hz Q 1
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 0.5
Filter: ON LPQ Fc 16000 Hz Q 1
Preamp: -8 dB
#Preamp: -100 dB

It looks like your using the built in low pass and high pass filters. I don't know if it processes the sound any different than using the equalizer.

Once I got my speaker drivers set up with steep slopes and no lobing I was amazed at how they project sound so effortlessly and how crystal clear the imaging is. I would put them up against any speakers in the world including KEF blade etc.

IME if you want multi driver speakers that sound like a perfect point source then get rid of lobing and phase distortion and beaming (up to the tweeter). Also using a curved baffle for the tweeter helps. I don't know of any way to do this except with an active system and software like equalizer APO.
Also flattening the FR makes a huge difference in sound quality, especially in the 1-8 khz region

 

[Boden]

Hello Arcgotic,

Is the 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav the filename of a Rephase generated file?

And how do you gentlemen assign the different channels to the soundcard outputs?

I cannot make head or tails of those lines in this thread so far.
E.g.
Copy: 1=R 2=L 3=L 4=R 5=-1*L 6=-1*R 7=L 8=R.
Does this mean outputs 1,5,1*7,8, are all derived from the original Right channel? idem 2,3,5,7 for Left?

Thanks,
Eelco

 

[33Polkhigh]

Hello Arcgotic,

Is the 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav the filename of a Rephase generated file?

And how do you gentlemen assign the different channels to the soundcard outputs?

I cannot make head or tails of those lines in this thread so far.
E.g.
Copy: 1=R 2=L 3=L 4=R 5=-1*L 6=-1*R 7=L 8=R.
Does this mean outputs 1,5,1*7,8, are all derived from the original Right channel? idem 2,3,5,7 for Left?

Thanks,
Eelco

I don;t know how he's doing it but see pages 4 and 5 of this discussion. You use the extra channels as duplicates, so each driver has its own channel.

 

[Boden]

Hi Jiiteepee,

What is the meaning of thee lines below in your config file? I could not trace that back to the Eq. APO Wiki. Could you please explain?
Eval: wc=2*pi*fcW Eval: wc2=wc*wc Eval: wc3=wc2*wc Eval: wc4=wc2*wc2 Eval: k=wc/tan(pi*fcW/sampleRate) Eval: k2=k*k Eval: k3=k2*k Eval: k4=k2*k2 Eval: sqrt2=sqrt(2) Eval: sq_tmp1=sqrt2*wc3*k Eval: sq_tmp2=sqrt2*wc*k3 Eval: a_tmp=4*wc2*k2+2*sq_tmp1+k4+2*sq_tmp2+wc4 Eval: b0 = 1 Eval: b1=(4*(wc4+sq_tmp1-k4-sq_tmp2))/a_tmp Eval: b2=(6*wc4-8*wc2*k2+6*k4)/a_tmp Eval: b3=(4*(wc4-sq_tmp1+sq_tmp2-k4))/a_tmp Eval: b4=(k4-2*sq_tmp1+wc4-2*sq_tmp2+4*wc2*k2)/a_tmp Eval: a0=wc4/a_tmp Eval: a1=4*wc4/a_tmp Eval: a2=6*wc4/a_tmp Eval: a3=a1 Eval: a4=a0 Eval: wc=2*pi*fcW Eval: wc2=wc*wc Eval: wc3=wc2*wc Eval: wc4=wc2*wc2 Eval: k=wc/tan(pi*fcW/sampleRate) Eval: k2=k*k Eval: k3=k2*k Eval: k4=k2*k2 Eval: sqrt2=sqrt(2) Eval: sq_tmp1=sqrt2*wc3*k Eval: sq_tmp2=sqrt2*wc*k3 Eval: a_tmp=4*wc2*k2+2*sq_tmp1+k4+2*sq_tmp2+wc4 Eval: b0 = 1 Eval: b1=(4*(wc4+sq_tmp1-k4-sq_tmp2))/a_tmp Eval: b2=(6*wc4-8*wc2*k2+6*k4)/a_tmp Eval: b3=(4*(wc4-sq_tmp1+sq_tmp2-k4))/a_tmp Eval: b4=(k4-2*sq_tmp1+wc4-2*sq_tmp2+4*wc2*k2)/a_tmp Eval: a0=wc4/a_tmp Eval: a1=4*wc4/a_tmp Eval: a2=6*wc4/a_tmp Eval: a3=a1 Eval: a4=a0

 

[Boden]

Sorry, the copy-paste is all over the place..

The question still stands.

Eelco

 

[jiiteepee]

Hi Jiiteepee,

What is the meaning of thee lines below in your config file? I could not trace that back to the Eq. APO Wiki. Could you please explain?
...

"Eval:" -command is mentioned in Wiki as well as "sampleRate" and "pi" and etc.
What is done there is just calculations for 4th order Low Pass and High Pass filters which are needed for to implement a LR4 3-way crossover filter (though, not perfect one):

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

LP | HP+LP | HP

Code I use is taken from here.

 

[arcgotic]

Hello Boden,
"Is the 125lr4Sub_minphase44.wav the filename of a Rephase generated file?"
Yes.

"And how do you gentlemen assign the different channels to the soundcard outputs?
I cannot make head or tails of those lines in this thread so far.
E.g.
Copy: 1=R 2=L 3=L 4=R 5=-1*L 6=-1*R 7=L 8=R.
Does this mean outputs 1,5,1*7,8, are all derived from the original Right channel? idem 2,3,5,7 for Left?"
Yes, 1, 3, 5,7 are Right clones, and 2,4,6,8 Left clones.
5=-1*L means polarity inverted (180degrees), I used it for Le Cleach crossover type.
The simplest way is to just do some random settings using EqAPO GUI, add all channels to do a Low pass whatever, and then open the config.txt file.
Then you see hat name gives EqAPO to the channels ( in my case "Channel: L" "Channel: SUB" etcetera, with other USB card the names were different.. )
Then, using this test sound identify channels as seen by EqAPO, YouTube

Mute them (Preamp: -100dB) all except one to identify them. Then things are simple. Just edit the config.txt with desired slopes, P EQ etc.



@33Polkhigh : I recently use linear phase crossover done in Rephase, 96db/oct@1500Hz for mid to tweeter crossover. And 24db/oct@200Hz for bass to mid. When you say steep, you mean steeper than 96?

 

[Boden]

jiiteepee and Arcgotic,

Thanks. The fog has cleared up a bit.

@ jiiteepee: As I understand it, you borrowed from John Kreskovksi/M.a.D. the textbook LR filter coefficients. Fine.

But, how does one use a real, non textbook filter that takes the individual drivers SP response into consideration in order to produce anacoustic, that is a driver+filter LR4 slope?

Also, is it correct that with EqAPO we do not need to fiddle with Asio4all, or is that a misunderstanding?

 

[33Polkhigh]

"Eval:" -command is mentioned in Wiki as well as "sampleRate" and "pi" and etc.
What is done there is just calculations for 4th order Low Pass and High Pass filters which are needed for to implement a LR4 3-way crossover filter (though, not perfect one):

LP | HP+LP | HP

Code I use is taken from here.

After looking at that link it seems someone can do a lot more than just what the program gui offers. There must be a formula for a really steep logarithmic slope?