moode vs volumio vs runeaudio

If we assume that all systems use the same Power Supply, DAC, Amp and Speakers then there are two main variables in this equation: sound quality and usability. I think such variables as low power consumption and more efficient thread handling could be excluded from the equation in favor of first two.

How can we test sound quality if all systems use MPD and ALSA? If it's not possible to come up with a well-defined set of tests which would involve measurements using oscilloscope or logic analyzer then blind tests is the only way. More people involved to the test better. Once again I'm ready to provide hardware for such tests - Pi board(s) and SD cards with pre-installed images in question.

So if we have four systems under test: moode, volumio, runeaudio and plain Raspbian with mpd then we need 4 Pi boards with the same DACs connected to them and DACs connected to the same amplifier and speakers.

UI/Usability is completely different topic and could be discussed separately.
 
Two diyers with passion for quality music playback - what a delight! There is no reason to be angry or offensive, guys! Be happy there are people around sharing your passion and learning from dissimilar opinions. Dissimilar does not mean wrong nor a personal offence. Words often poorly express the love in our hearts. Listen & Enjoy ;-)!
 
Just FYI.

There's is a risk you might fool yourself by running pure listening tests.
The question about better/worse or right/wrong sound might be difficult to nail down.
That there is a difference can be spotted much easier though.

I faced the same annoying discussions with the snakeoil-fraction over at squeezebox forums around 2011 when introducing my "SqueezeBox-Touch Toolbox" which basically did nothing but increasing the efficiency of that system. This or that related mod are meanwhile applied all over the place.

To prove me wrong people tried pretty much everything. One guy came up with the idea to use a tool called AudioDiffmaker , which basically intelligently compares two recorded pieces of played back music, not just a simple tone. Actually a potentially great idea! Ever tried to identify a sound difference by playing and listening to a 1 khz tone !?!?


By using such a tool, you'd reduce the number of flaws that are injected by the audio chain/room/ears/mind. However. There might be new flaws. An ADC is not flawless either. Though probably less flawed than a standard reproduction chain.
And an active chain is causing quite some environmental impact that might interfere with the transport/DAC. That would be taken out of the equation as well.

He then ran his tests. With and without toolbox. He was pretty surprised about the results. Several people, including me ran the tests, with similar results.

Do you guys think that "snakeoil" fraction kept quiet after the results had been presented and discussed ??? Of course not. They just continued with the bull as if nothing had happened.

Bottom line. If you have a quality ADC at hand, just give it try.

Enjoy.
 
How can we test sound quality if all systems use MPD and ALSA?

Although I assume that you 've already understood what I believe regarding your concerns, please note that different Linux distributions usually means different kernel versions (and different Alsa versions), different MPD, different compile flags, different configuration etc.

So, even two raspbian based distributions doesn't mean that they are identical, as ex. one of them might be running an rt kernel or a much older MPD version etc.

BTW, now that I referred to RT kernels, if you use MPD, you might want to read what its developer says about them:

Real-Time Scheduling

There is a rumor that real-time scheduling improves audio quality. That is not true. All it does is reduce the probability of skipping (audio buffer xruns) when the computer is under heavy load.
 
@tuxx

You still don't understand a bit of what you're doing with Archphile or what's been discussed over here or what's been discussed since almost a decade.

I tried to explain the principle in my earlier post. I obviously failed.

A simple question:

What happens if you reduce/get rid off XRUNS and/or skipping ???

Yep. You increase the system efficiency. You pave the road!

It's that simple.

Now go several posts back and try to read and understand my posts.

Do you think a rt-kernel developer wants to get involved in snakeoil sound quality discussions!?!? Of course not. He's not stupid.


Unfortunately a rt-kernel on the PI is not that easy to handle. It even can make things worse.
On a RPI the rt-kernel (e.g. the one I've been providing for Moode) is still causing quite a high load on the USB stack. IMO a flaw.
That contradicts it's actual "higher efficiency" purpose to a certain extent.
Some people believe that just compiling and installing a rt-kernel will do the trick. Of course not! It requires quite some finetuning of the entire data chain to get it properly going.
And then a rt-kernel is not something you want to have on a multi purpose (numerous apps and services running at the same time) installation. It's meant to run on single purpose machines only.

On the other side most recent kernels get better and better in handling high priority tasks and still do some "fair" scheduling. Still I think the rt-kernel is not obsolete yet.


Enjoy.
 
XRUNS and skipping can be avoided with many other different ways and an RT kernel is not a requirement.

Especially when we talk about MPD, the resources that this nice piece of software requires are ridiculously low. Even with DXD reproduction or with sox resapmpling everything to 32/352.8 the CPU footprint of MPD is zero.

As a result it all depends on everything else apart from MPD. So, an RT kernel might be a solution to a bloated system but certainly not required in more minimal approaches.
 
So you say that a minimal Linux installation with MPD installed even on an older crappy RPI, without a client running on the server and as a result without a web server, php, mysql or maria db and with all cores dedicated to MPD, will benefit from an RT kernel?

If this is what you say, so yes, I live inside the Matrix and I haven't understood anything.
 
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What happens if you reduce/get rid off XRUNS and/or skipping ???

Yep. You increase the system efficiency. You pave the road!

Depending on what you call efficiency. Throughput, or power consumption or anything else?

RT kernel does not lower power consumption. On the contrary, it loads your CPU more. It just lowers the chances of xruns for rt-elevated processes by modifying the various process/IO scheduler rules to (try to) avoid stalling these processes for more than some specified time/priority. All this takes more CPU plus some drivers may have problems. As a matter of fact some years ago I did experience this case, fixing was not simple (and way above my kernel skills) [alsa-devel] MIDI on ice1724 - real-time kernel problem

You can fight xruns e.g. by enlarging alsa buffers/periods. More time, less chances of being late. But this has been told here so many times...

Some soundcards/USB combinations refuse to accept larger periods/lower IRQ rates and must be treated with RT hacks to decrease the xrun probability. There is no universal cure.
 
So, leaving aside the bickering between parties here, is there a consensus for those of us looking for a simple answer to which has the better sonic performance: moode vs volumio2?

Or, am I just asking in the wrong place? :D

Or PCP, my current choice.

Considering that it is either 2 SD cards, or putting the two OS's on the same SD card one after each other, why not try both and make your own choice, with your equipment?
 
Or PCP, my current choice.

Considering that it is either 2 SD cards, or putting the two OS's on the same SD card one after each other, why not try both and make your own choice, with your equipment?
Time and effort. Especially since moOde is now a 'roll your own' configuration. I figured you experts will have experimented with various installs across a diversity of equipment and have come to a consensus.
 
Hope you have patience...

As you have read, some are quite vocal in supporting their choice over another.

If time is a challenge, just pick the easiest to install and configure, I'm sure you'll be content.

But if it was me, it'd be PiCorePlayer (and I got here via Rune, Moode, Volumio, Rune again)
Well, it's also a matter of needing four or five Pi/DAC/SDcard sets to do an A/B/C/D... comparison. Looks like I have some work ahead of me.
 
Or PCP, my current choice.

Hi


I have been using moode and really liked it, but am now put off by the new protracted install process . I managed it, but even then GUI is buggy - all in all it seems a step-back from previous versions!

I started to look at PCP but am a bit confused about what it is/does. Can it work like moode, i.e. find its content on a NAS and be controlled from a browser (e.g. on phone or laptop)?


Thanks
 
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I started to look at PCP but am a bit confused about what it is/does. Can it work like moode, i.e. find its content on a NAS and be controlled from a browser (e.g. on phone or laptop)?

Thanks


You"re precisely where I was maybe 12 months ago. At first glance PCP can appear confusing, if not a bit daunting. Read the info in the link that Greg posted, there is also a PCP thread on here, and on the slim devices forum.

But essentially yes, PCP is used as you describe, with an arguably better choice of phone apps, with decent UIs, for control, as well as being able to use any web browser. A key initial choice is where you install the LMS element, which largely depends on your NAS.

Believe me, the endeavour will be worthwhile:D
 
You guys need to get your priorities right first.

Either you ask for all kind of features or you get along with a single purpose
high performance audio engine.

And then you need to decide if you can live with a MPD based system or a squeezelite/LMS based system.


When it comes to soundquality. You'll find in the Moode thread numerous
people claiming to experience a better soundquality, then e.g. Volumio.
I'd sign that at least for the older releases. Most of them havn't tried pCP though.

Moode and Diet-Pi offer both MPD and squeezelite. That'll keep you flexible.
Simply swapping SD-cards is not a big deal either. :rolleyes:
Everybody can simply try everything. It's all FOC.


Let's have a word about piCorePlayer. TinyCore - the underlying OS - is an awful OS - from a maintainers perspective.
The folks at piCorePlayer are facing ten times the effort to build, extend and maintain
that OS compared to other OSes.
To be honest. For what reason do I make things more complicated? We can buy 16GB SD-cards only (below 10$) anyhow.
What does it matter if an OS comes with 50MB (pCP) or 500MB ("diet"-pi) or >1GB (the rest) ?
Pretty much all of them just use the kernel, squeezelite and this or that tiny service and the rest is just sitting idle on the SD card !?!?

Bottom line.

Surprise, surprise.

As a single purpose audio engine my first choice would be piCoreplayer ( - for now at least). No. Neither Volumio, nor Moode, nor Rune, nor DietPi would be on the list for that purpose.

* I do prefer a single purpose audio engine. (with separate server)
* I do prefer the LMS environment over MPD.
* pCP comes with quite some audio optimizations and audio kernels nobody else is offering right now.
* their SW and compiler are pretty much up2date (You can't always say that about Raspbian based systems, such as Moode/Volumio/DietPi)
* and it offers some nice tweak options
* All that builds a very promising base for a great audio engine and
* great sound


Enjoy.