Hi all,
I'm looking to test out a PC based solution for crossover and distributed subs. Right now I have two 2x4 miniDSP units to run one sub and stereo three way speakers (the mid/tweet crossover is passive). I'm building of new speakers that may be 3-way and with at least 2 subs that are down-mixed to mono. So, the current solution cannot work.
I could go for the miniDSP 8x8 or 10x10, but I want to plan for future addition of more channels, either more subs, more drivers per speaker or more speakers (as in for home theater).
I've read some threads on here and it's very confusing about what is the right path. Any suggestions? I'm using Window 7 on a newish laptop.
JRiver appears to be the right software to run because it allows up to 32 channels (or so I hear). And it runs video too, which is perfect. But I don't see very many soundcards with 8 or more outputs for laptops. ESI Gigaport HD?
For processing the crossover and frequency response, there are options too: Bodizo, rePhase, Acourate, others? I'm inclined towards rePhase because I've used it before and it's free. Will JRiver+filters generated from rePhase work?
Another wrinkle is I have a lot of music on vinyl (no, I don't care about the poor playback. Good music is good music). So, the phono preamp output needs to be accepted by the soundcard.
So, please, tell me about your experiences. What works, what doesn't. What's easy, hard, expensive, free, simple...
Thanks!
I'm looking to test out a PC based solution for crossover and distributed subs. Right now I have two 2x4 miniDSP units to run one sub and stereo three way speakers (the mid/tweet crossover is passive). I'm building of new speakers that may be 3-way and with at least 2 subs that are down-mixed to mono. So, the current solution cannot work.
I could go for the miniDSP 8x8 or 10x10, but I want to plan for future addition of more channels, either more subs, more drivers per speaker or more speakers (as in for home theater).
I've read some threads on here and it's very confusing about what is the right path. Any suggestions? I'm using Window 7 on a newish laptop.
JRiver appears to be the right software to run because it allows up to 32 channels (or so I hear). And it runs video too, which is perfect. But I don't see very many soundcards with 8 or more outputs for laptops. ESI Gigaport HD?
For processing the crossover and frequency response, there are options too: Bodizo, rePhase, Acourate, others? I'm inclined towards rePhase because I've used it before and it's free. Will JRiver+filters generated from rePhase work?
Another wrinkle is I have a lot of music on vinyl (no, I don't care about the poor playback. Good music is good music). So, the phono preamp output needs to be accepted by the soundcard.
So, please, tell me about your experiences. What works, what doesn't. What's easy, hard, expensive, free, simple...
Thanks!
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Questions:
Keep in mind if you construct a PC-based system you might be stuck always having to run the PC to listen to it. UE may now have stand-alone capability; my memory is fuzzy on this however.
If you are just looking to design the (active) crossover so that it can be implemented using the MiniDSP crossover(s), you might take a look at my "Active Crossover Designer" tools:
the Active Crossover Designer web page
- Why "PC based"? It seems like your DSP is hardware based (the MiniDSP units).
- Why can you not use the existing two 2x4 boards to implement your proposed "3-way plus mono sub(s)"? It is totally possible using one 2x4 per channel (e.g. one for L ch one for R ch via the 4-way advanced plug in) and then mixing the two sub output channels down to mono before or at the amp.
- What do you mean when you say "processing the crossover and frequency response"? What is this "processing" doing?
Keep in mind if you construct a PC-based system you might be stuck always having to run the PC to listen to it. UE may now have stand-alone capability; my memory is fuzzy on this however.
If you are just looking to design the (active) crossover so that it can be implemented using the MiniDSP crossover(s), you might take a look at my "Active Crossover Designer" tools:
the Active Crossover Designer web page
Thanks Eekco! I have my eye on UE. Let's see how things work out. Do you have any thoughts on the hardware side? After not seeing a lot of replies, I ordered the USBStreamer and 4 Curryman DACs from miniDSP. This should give me 8 channels for now and I can order another set for 8 more. Two USBStreamers can work together according to one of the threads on the miniDSP forums.
Charlie, while I have two 2x4 units, I may need more channels. Besides, there is nothing wrong with doing the processing on a computer (processing is doing the crossover, flattening the response as necessary, dealing with the low frequencies, etc). Tools exist and the power is unlimited, relatively speaking. MiniDSP is great and I may still use it, but I want to experiment with a PC-based solution, seeing as how you are not tied to any hardware, just need a soundcard or basically DACs, one per channel of output you need.
Right now, the chain is digital (from PC) to DAC to miniDSP and to amps. It's a little less elegant than I'd like it to be. Of course you can feed the DSP units directly with digital, but the PC-based solution gets rid of them altogether.
My PC is running anyway because I use it as the source. It will run now during LP playback as well, which is fine. I'm aware of your crossover designer tool, it's great. Thanks!
Charlie, while I have two 2x4 units, I may need more channels. Besides, there is nothing wrong with doing the processing on a computer (processing is doing the crossover, flattening the response as necessary, dealing with the low frequencies, etc). Tools exist and the power is unlimited, relatively speaking. MiniDSP is great and I may still use it, but I want to experiment with a PC-based solution, seeing as how you are not tied to any hardware, just need a soundcard or basically DACs, one per channel of output you need.
Right now, the chain is digital (from PC) to DAC to miniDSP and to amps. It's a little less elegant than I'd like it to be. Of course you can feed the DSP units directly with digital, but the PC-based solution gets rid of them altogether.
My PC is running anyway because I use it as the source. It will run now during LP playback as well, which is fine. I'm aware of your crossover designer tool, it's great. Thanks!
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Draki, good point. I probably didn't think this through when I ordered the USBStreamer and Curryman DACs 
The USBStreamer does have multiple inputs (I2S and toslink), so I can try to work something through that route. I have the trial XMOS Asyc board and it has an analog input, which I believe can be output through the toslink output. I haven't tried it. Let's see.
The USBStreamer does have multiple inputs (I2S and toslink), so I can try to work something through that route. I have the trial XMOS Asyc board and it has an analog input, which I believe can be output through the toslink output. I haven't tried it. Let's see.
I asked miniDSP a while ago about this (i.e. using an outside digital source to the USBStreamer' Toslink input, route thru JRiver, then thru Bodzio EQ+XO and then out thru USBStreamer' I2S outputs): they replied they never tried that configuration and that it (sic) depends on the software.
Very interested what will your set-up be and if that will work.
Very interested what will your set-up be and if that will work.
Mitchba, a member here, sent me this link:
Computer Audiophile - Advanced Acourate Digital XO Time Alignment Driver Linearization Walkthrough
It talks about how this can be worked through JRiver and using Acourate to develop the filters. I plan on doing something similar, except using Holm for measurements and rePhase to develop the filters (both free). With two USBStreamers and 8 Curryman DACs, you can have 16 channels to play with.
Computer Audiophile - Advanced Acourate Digital XO Time Alignment Driver Linearization Walkthrough
It talks about how this can be worked through JRiver and using Acourate to develop the filters. I plan on doing something similar, except using Holm for measurements and rePhase to develop the filters (both free). With two USBStreamers and 8 Curryman DACs, you can have 16 channels to play with.
At this point, the only software I'm paying for is JRiver. I'm not very familiar with Linux and it's associated software. Also, what about the drivers for soundcards? I appreciate the simplicity offered by Linux, but it will much more effort to go that route, at least for now.
Tell us what you use and how you route the signal to the amps.
Tell us what you use and how you route the signal to the amps.
Ubuntu Linux includes drivers for every sound card I tested. The basics for what I did came from here: Digital Crossover/EQ with Open-Source Software: HOWTO | Richard's Stuff
What I have is an old Pentium III laptop with current Ubuntu installed, a cheap usb 7.1 sound card (automatically recognized). MPD (Music Player Daemon) set up to route sound through Ecasound for the crossover and Sox for dither, all per Richard's site. There are a broad range filters that come with the Ecasound install. I'm using a 4th order LR low-pass and some eq on the subs, 2nd order high-pass on the mains. I've used both mono and stereo for the sub (not sure I can tell the diff).
This all replaced an analog crossover I built 15 years ago, and does sound at least as good, (I think better, but the analog was designed for a different sub). No other hardware in the system besides the amps and the network drive where the music all lives. I don't currently have any other source configured; just my library of sound files.
What I have is an old Pentium III laptop with current Ubuntu installed, a cheap usb 7.1 sound card (automatically recognized). MPD (Music Player Daemon) set up to route sound through Ecasound for the crossover and Sox for dither, all per Richard's site. There are a broad range filters that come with the Ecasound install. I'm using a 4th order LR low-pass and some eq on the subs, 2nd order high-pass on the mains. I've used both mono and stereo for the sub (not sure I can tell the diff).
This all replaced an analog crossover I built 15 years ago, and does sound at least as good, (I think better, but the analog was designed for a different sub). No other hardware in the system besides the amps and the network drive where the music all lives. I don't currently have any other source configured; just my library of sound files.
I've been using JRiver for multi-way speakers plus subs for a little over 2 years now. I use a 12 channel pro interface for the DAC, that has line in and out (it seems you've got your DAC situation handled?). Other than operator error, it's been flawless. There are some features as far as speaker design goes that I would like to see but I'm sure they will come in time as MC is in constant development and the devs listen to the customers.....and I can make its' current feature set work for what I need to do.
Personally, I determine eq and xo in REW (excellent freeware) and do the linear phase stuff with rePhase. MC handles convolution files generated by rePhase no problem as long as rePhase is setup correctly.
You can also use MC's audio stack to process any audio sent to the Windows audio driver with a virtual loopback connection. Currently I'm having some stutter issues when using linear phase convolution with the loopback but I'll get that sorted at some point.
I used to use miniDSP. I had to send both boards back for warranty repair (the usb connector broke off on both). Without the minis my active system was down so I used MC's PEQ to handle my xo/eq situation and used the 7.1 mobo audio for the DACs while my minis were gone. The sq from the mobo line out connection was horrid, but the infinite flexibility of MC as an active xo was incredible compared to my miniDSPs. When I got the minis back I listed them for sale and got my interface. For me speaker management on the PC is the only way to fly......
Personally, I determine eq and xo in REW (excellent freeware) and do the linear phase stuff with rePhase. MC handles convolution files generated by rePhase no problem as long as rePhase is setup correctly.
You can also use MC's audio stack to process any audio sent to the Windows audio driver with a virtual loopback connection. Currently I'm having some stutter issues when using linear phase convolution with the loopback but I'll get that sorted at some point.
I used to use miniDSP. I had to send both boards back for warranty repair (the usb connector broke off on both). Without the minis my active system was down so I used MC's PEQ to handle my xo/eq situation and used the 7.1 mobo audio for the DACs while my minis were gone. The sq from the mobo line out connection was horrid, but the infinite flexibility of MC as an active xo was incredible compared to my miniDSPs. When I got the minis back I listed them for sale and got my interface. For me speaker management on the PC is the only way to fly......
I will admit that I haven't really looked for new alternatives in the last year or so, but I'd agree that JRiver is the no-brainer platform of choice for DSP speaker systems at the moment. With the addition of the convolution engine, it offers one-stop-shopping for processing.
Getting started with an inexpensive HDMI receiver is a fairly attractive entry point, although it's not the only platform whre that will work.
Be careful - have you verified that you can actually use 2 USBStreamers together as a single unified soundcard? Being able to do this is not that common - many of the firewire audio interfaces allow it, but I'm not sure about the USB options. I'd actually be surprised (pleasantly) if the xmos-based units like the USBStreamer can be bonded that way.
Getting started with an inexpensive HDMI receiver is a fairly attractive entry point, although it's not the only platform whre that will work.
Be careful - have you verified that you can actually use 2 USBStreamers together as a single unified soundcard? Being able to do this is not that common - many of the firewire audio interfaces allow it, but I'm not sure about the USB options. I'd actually be surprised (pleasantly) if the xmos-based units like the USBStreamer can be bonded that way.
Thanks for the info!
I was exploring Foobar yesterday. I know it can convolve two-channel files. I'm not sure if it can do more channels. If it can, and if it can map to multiple channels, then there may be an alternative to JRiver as well.
I believe this has been done over on the miniDSP forum (on their website).
It lives!
Finished putting together the four Curryman DACs, the USBStreamer and the power supplies. Power supplies are LCBPS and Placid from Twisted Pear. The cables from the USBStreamer and Curryman DACs are kept as small as possible. The DACs share the BCK, LRCK and Grounds from the USBStreamer. Stacking the DACs allows a single solid core wire to be run from the top to the bottom. Connection from the USBStreamer is then made at the second DAC, so that the length to all DACs is as short as possible.
It worked the first time I turned it on, which was a surprise All 8 channels work. No noise, no other problems. Now comes the hard part, working out the routing through the computer.
Finished putting together the four Curryman DACs, the USBStreamer and the power supplies. Power supplies are LCBPS and Placid from Twisted Pear. The cables from the USBStreamer and Curryman DACs are kept as small as possible. The DACs share the BCK, LRCK and Grounds from the USBStreamer. Stacking the DACs allows a single solid core wire to be run from the top to the bottom. Connection from the USBStreamer is then made at the second DAC, so that the length to all DACs is as short as possible.
It worked the first time I turned it on, which was a surprise
All 8 channels work. No noise, no other problems. Now comes the hard part, working out the routing through the computer.Attachments
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