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Old 5th September 2013, 09:56 AM   #201
gk7 is offline gk7
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... An ABX test under double blind conditions will confirm or refute his claim...
It could confirm (well, actually it wonīt because there exists no mechanism which would make it possible) but it canīt refute.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:08 AM   #202
SY is offline SY  United States
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Sure it can. If he can't hear it ears-only after claiming he can hear it while peeking, he can't hear it. This is a very different question than, "Can anyone hear it?" and those should not be conflated.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:12 AM   #203
gk7 is offline gk7
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No, he can't hear it under the conditions of a double blind test,
which unfortunately proves nothing.
(Donīt get me wrong, Iīm sure that there are no differences to be heard because
itīs technically not possible but a DBT is not the way to "proove" that.)

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Old 5th September 2013, 10:32 AM   #204
JaeK is offline JaeK  Sweden
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gk7, you may be confusing two things.

He says that he CAN hear the difference between two cables.
The only thing that we can agree on, unless someone thinks he's lying, is that he CAN hear a DIFFERENCE.

If the Double-Blind Test turns out negative, then we can rule out the cables. McGurk does not equal a difference in cables.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:38 AM   #205
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gk7 View Post
No, he can't hear it under the conditions of a double blind test,
which unfortunately proves nothing.
It proves that he can't hear it ears only, without peeking.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:46 AM   #206
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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IMO gk7 is right. The other outcome of the "he can hear it" DBT is not "he cannot hear it". E.g. he can hear it but deliberately decides to fail the test. He cannot deliberately pick the right answers, but he can pick up the wrong ones.

In DBT I cannot prove I do not hear something.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:48 AM   #207
SY is offline SY  United States
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Yes, he can (and may) make a creative excuse, but it's an excuse. If he can't hear it with his ears, he can't hear it, and there's no escaping that.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:50 AM   #208
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaeK
The only thing that we can agree on, unless someone thinks he's lying, is that he CAN hear a DIFFERENCE.
Doesn't that depend on what is meant by 'hear'?

Perceiving a difference which we attribute to the stimulus received by our ears may be called hearing a difference. But what if there is no difference, because nothing at all has been changed? What if the perception of difference disappears when peeking is not allowed?

Lying is not the issue. It is conceivable that it might happen in some tests, but as a general rule we can discount it. No, if someone says he can hear a difference then we should assume that he genuinely believes that he can hear a difference. This is not proof that he actually is hearing a difference.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:54 AM   #209
JaeK is offline JaeK  Sweden
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Doesn't that depend on what is meant by 'hear'?
Isn't it easy?
Person: "I can hear a difference between these two things."

Done.

Obviously, this implies what is perceived and says nothing about whether or not the sound-waves actually differ (and in this case, they don't).
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Old 5th September 2013, 11:00 AM   #210
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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No, if someone says he can hear a difference then we should assume that he genuinely believes that he can hear a difference. This is not proof that he actually is hearing a difference.
This is where the point is. If he passes the DBT and we agree that passing e.g. 98% confidence interval is enough for us to discard the "by-chance" option, he has proven that he can hear it. If he fails, he did not prove anything. The McGurk works the other way too. I know all the technical reasons why I cannot hear it. How could I be objective enough to really try hard to hear it? I know I will fail the test and I really will. No objective outcome at all. The only objective outcome is if I pick correct options as no prior state of mind, knowledge, attitude, feelings can help in succeeding, only my ears do. Unlike in failing the test.
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