Doesn't surprise me. Every speaker load, room and listener preference varies from one member to the next. Everyone likes what they like because of these differences. Set it the way you like it and proceed.
My latest experiment was to mimic another member here and take one channel from my M2 clone and one channel from my Aleph J clone and switch them so each amp is 1/2 and 1/2. A heavy duty switch directs the power supply to the channel to be used.
Now both are mono block and the improvement was across the board and very noticeable. Perceived power, sound stage width, depth and height improved a surprising amount....not really on point here, but I thought I would note that.
Russellc
My latest experiment was to mimic another member here and take one channel from my M2 clone and one channel from my Aleph J clone and switch them so each amp is 1/2 and 1/2. A heavy duty switch directs the power supply to the channel to be used.
Now both are mono block and the improvement was across the board and very noticeable. Perceived power, sound stage width, depth and height improved a surprising amount....not really on point here, but I thought I would note that.
Russellc
Yes it does, re read: Go to first new post 2-Way Bi-amping, vertical or horizontal, which one is better?
I gave my preference, it just doesnt address your narrative, which is fine as I am addressing the OP that's all.
Russellc
"Doesn't surprise me. Every speaker load, room and listener preference varies from one member to the next. Everyone likes what they like because of these differences. Set it the way you like it and proceed."
Agree.
I just don't follow the amp configuration you tried. You used 2 different kinds of mono blocks? In combining I presume you used one kind for the woofer and another kind for tweeter per side, correct? If yes what is the heavy duty switch for?
Agree.
I just don't follow the amp configuration you tried. You used 2 different kinds of mono blocks? In combining I presume you used one kind for the woofer and another kind for tweeter per side, correct? If yes what is the heavy duty switch for?
Again, I'm telling OP my experiences, and will continue to do so. His question is which one is better, not why. I am not addressing your measurement narrative, not that it isnt valid...just not what I am addressing.
I, like the OP tried something and liked it. I build to listen to, if I like it, good.
Russellc
I, like the OP tried something and liked it. I build to listen to, if I like it, good.
Russellc
I have been using horizontal bi-amping with ESS AMT1A speakers for more than 10 years.
I use a tube based active crossover, a stereo 8 watt/channel 300B SE amp for the tweeters and a stereo 40 watt/channel EL34 PP amp for the bass.
There is significant difference in sensitivity between the AMT tweeter and the 12 inch woofer. In addition the PP amp controlled the bass better than the SE amp.
With horizontal bi-amping I think I get the best solution for this combination.
I tried vertical bi-amping with 2 GTA SE-40 amps. I didn't like the bass. I switched to horizontal bi-amping and tried a denon poa 2400 on the bass. I liked that combination and used it for years. But, I was still not entirely satisfied. It was fatiguing after a couple hours of listening.
I replaced the Denon with a McIntosh SS amp and a classD audio amp. Those were worse than the Denon. The day I tried a 10 watt 6V6 PP tube amp on the bottom it all began to come together. And I went on search for a higher power bass amp and a 300B tweeter amp. When I connected the EL34 PP and 300B SE I found the combination that I could play all day and never get fatigued.
Steve
I use a tube based active crossover, a stereo 8 watt/channel 300B SE amp for the tweeters and a stereo 40 watt/channel EL34 PP amp for the bass.
There is significant difference in sensitivity between the AMT tweeter and the 12 inch woofer. In addition the PP amp controlled the bass better than the SE amp.
With horizontal bi-amping I think I get the best solution for this combination.
I tried vertical bi-amping with 2 GTA SE-40 amps. I didn't like the bass. I switched to horizontal bi-amping and tried a denon poa 2400 on the bass. I liked that combination and used it for years. But, I was still not entirely satisfied. It was fatiguing after a couple hours of listening.
I replaced the Denon with a McIntosh SS amp and a classD audio amp. Those were worse than the Denon. The day I tried a 10 watt 6V6 PP tube amp on the bottom it all began to come together. And I went on search for a higher power bass amp and a 300B tweeter amp. When I connected the EL34 PP and 300B SE I found the combination that I could play all day and never get fatigued.
Steve
Of course my conversation concerned vertical bi amping and nothing you are saying counters that. Sorry if my comments dont rise to your narrative, but again they were directed to OP, not you.
You may continue this on your own, and measure whatever you wish. All the best to your efforts.
Russellc
Is as much as mrScottjoplin is happy, and back on topic, my experiments with vertical biamping were quite favorable at that time and with that system. I didnt need to measure for the improvement I sought, it was due to the greater separation in the two channels.
Sounds like OP had a slightly different experience. In his system and with his preferences he found more enjoyment with the horizontal arraignment.
As to active crossovers, I really haven't had the desire, but sounds like Nelson has gifted an active crossover goody. I just started reading that thread. OP is not using active, just biamping with separate sets of binding posts. Maybe it's time to try active, but that's another thread.
Apologies to OP for the off topic.
Russellc
Sounds like OP had a slightly different experience. In his system and with his preferences he found more enjoyment with the horizontal arraignment.
As to active crossovers, I really haven't had the desire, but sounds like Nelson has gifted an active crossover goody. I just started reading that thread. OP is not using active, just biamping with separate sets of binding posts. Maybe it's time to try active, but that's another thread.
Apologies to OP for the off topic.
Russellc
Oh no, sorry for confusion. I had told two stories. On the vertical biamp story, I had two identical 60 watt amps.
On the other, 1/2 Aleph J, 1/2 M2 only one amp pair (either M2 or Aleph J determined by switch.) works at the time. You switch it to one amp or the other. Also, this was when I was discussing monoblock advantages, this was not for biamping....you either have mono block M2 or Aleph J.
I turned my two stereo amps into mono-blocks for 10 dollars
Russellc
I usually connect my multiple Aleph Js in Russellc's way. 2 monoblocks for left and right, not top and bottom. I have never compared it with the other configuration. I wonder if IMD really occurs between left and right in class-a stereo amp. It should be measurable somehow.
Monoblock surely has its advantages, but I would rather choose smaller stereo amp for tweeter like NP suggested. Using the same class A amps for woofer and tweeter makes the room too hot in reality, and arguably, smaller amp can sound better because of its simplicity.
Monoblock surely has its advantages, but I would rather choose smaller stereo amp for tweeter like NP suggested. Using the same class A amps for woofer and tweeter makes the room too hot in reality, and arguably, smaller amp can sound better because of its simplicity.
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FYI Mr. Pass. I tried this using tubes on top and SS on bottom and while each does its job quite well there is a perceptible issue that I would call homogeneity. You can tell the overall sound isn't cut from the same cloth, so to speak.
I find using very similar amplifiers resolves this issue.
Very happy for you. As you know I also found horizontal bi-amping (HBA) better than vertical (VBA) which almost came as a shock because I was expecting VBA to knock HBA out. In trying to explain why, here's my own theory.
While VBA gives you better separation and no crosstalk these benefits are not nearly as audible as HBA's benefits which are, superior symmetry, phase integrity and IMD elimination. When you tweak one spectrum, its done on both channels simultaneously so you clearly hear the difference you're making.
Trying this on VBA one channel at a time is very difficult to get exactly right. It means your amplifiers must behave identically which is usually not the case. Just achieving the same symmetry as HBA's is almost impossible. And you have to achieve that for both spectra separately and as a whole.
In HBA it can take a couple of hours or so of focused listening and you will inevitably hit the right spot and from there its nothing but oohs and ah yess.
I have a DIY speaker system using vintage JBL prosound drivers which I biamp horizontally. My current amplifiers include monoblocks for the lower frequencies and a stereo amplifier for the highs.
The stereo amplifier has independent power supplies for each channel with separate secondary transformer windings. As well, each channel's bias supply is independently regulated although they share the same transformer. So, the amplifier has a fairly decent power supply setup.
All the amplifiers are class A single-ended using VFETs so they share the same sound characteristics, although the lower range amplifiers produce more power.
With this set-up, I am very happy with the sound. I can play my music loud, and I do, without the sound falling apart. Better bass, too. I think this is due to having high efficiency speakers, amplifiers with good power supplies, and similar amplifier topologies.
Prior this this setup, I had a Sony TAN-5550 VFET amp driving the woofers but it did not sound as good. I had completely rebuilt it so it was performing properly, and I thought it sounded great until I replaced it with my single ended VFET monoblock amps. The Sony is also rated for more power output as well.
My speaker cross-over frequency is around 800 Hz. This is about midway in the music frequency range, so it is not surprising that the low frequency amplifiers make such a difference. Having similar amplifiers both top and bottom helps a lot.
I have never tried vertical biamping so I can't comment on that.
The stereo amplifier has independent power supplies for each channel with separate secondary transformer windings. As well, each channel's bias supply is independently regulated although they share the same transformer. So, the amplifier has a fairly decent power supply setup.
All the amplifiers are class A single-ended using VFETs so they share the same sound characteristics, although the lower range amplifiers produce more power.
With this set-up, I am very happy with the sound. I can play my music loud, and I do, without the sound falling apart. Better bass, too. I think this is due to having high efficiency speakers, amplifiers with good power supplies, and similar amplifier topologies.
Prior this this setup, I had a Sony TAN-5550 VFET amp driving the woofers but it did not sound as good. I had completely rebuilt it so it was performing properly, and I thought it sounded great until I replaced it with my single ended VFET monoblock amps. The Sony is also rated for more power output as well.
My speaker cross-over frequency is around 800 Hz. This is about midway in the music frequency range, so it is not surprising that the low frequency amplifiers make such a difference. Having similar amplifiers both top and bottom helps a lot.
I have never tried vertical biamping so I can't comment on that.
Hi ArcticBrew. Of all the systems I've seen here I find yours most interesting and promising. I'm well aware of the AMT's reputation and using 300B SE is the best. Should be a spiritual experience.
On the lows, however, I think this is the area where you can keep experimenting on. I get your choice of PP EL34 but the AMT is not just sensitive its super fast and the fast woofers need to be smaller. Maybe a couple of 8ohm 8" or 6.5" in parallel would be worth trying. They can go down to 30hz easily.
Lastly the bass amp. I previously posted my finding against using dissimilar amps in horizontal. The amps I'm currently using are integrated hybrid amps with a twist. See the solid state amp section is tube rectified. Ever since I upgraded 4 major caps to Nichicons I've been smitten.
I don't know of a 40W power amp out there w/ tube rectification but what I'm saying is there is a positive difference on how transistors handle bass and the tube rectifiers hopefully would "imbue" the needed similarity to your
SE amp to make the whole sonic picture seem homogeneous. Cheers!
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