We were all Noobs once.
...join FAB
-- FEARLESS AMPLIFIER BUILDERS --
+1
Nelson and I and thousands of other guys built amplifiers before the internet, before there were more than a few good books on the subject. Did I overlook something? Probably. Will it burn? Better try it outside first. Burn a month's spare-change a few times, "fear" gets less.
Finding this Forum and getting involved is what enabled me to build my first amp.
Nelson's articles and veterans of this forum were my enablers. If you're truly putting
forth the effort to learn - when you post a question for help, it will get answered.
Best thing that ever happened to me in my Audio Journey
Thanks guys.
[ie: if an idiot like me can do it, so can you!]
Nelson's articles and veterans of this forum were my enablers. If you're truly putting
forth the effort to learn - when you post a question for help, it will get answered.
Best thing that ever happened to me in my Audio Journey
Thanks guys.[ie: if an idiot like me can do it, so can you!]
Whenever I decide to build a new project, I spend days reading the thread on that project. Everytime I read something I think I will use during the build I copy the info and paste it to word document. I use all the info I collected as my cheat sheet while following 6L6 build guides or Tea-Bags guide, or anyone else I also have several documents for power supplies, matching fets etc.
I try to co!llect as much wisdom from the members here and copy the wisdom so I can continue to learn.
My doctor says this is a great way to keep dementia away, is to learn and use reasoning to solve problems. When I'm totally lost, I just ask a question.
I try to co!llect as much wisdom from the members here and copy the wisdom so I can continue to learn.
My doctor says this is a great way to keep dementia away, is to learn and use reasoning to solve problems. When I'm totally lost, I just ask a question.
I agree with elwood.
One thing that is hard for non professionals in the trade is that hardly a new project here comes without 5 revisions, and then 10 different people start arguing why a resistor X is much better than resistor Y. It gives you some food for thought, but also gets old quickly. The revisions are totally acceptable though. Nobody is being paid for work here, and almost nobody, except for Mr. Pass and a couple of others are actually professionals on the day-to-day life. Stuff goes wrong and must be fixed somehow.
I started to ignore most of the side discussions and adhering to what I think is important, which is mostly the original design and important revisions.
I appreciate the help of most in this forum. Unfortunately there is still a lot of "secrecy" from some members who like to show their low resolution pictures of something that is done but will not share why their system is so "marvelous". Usually saying it's trivial and obvious, details are not needed. Well, when you put together an electronics engineer with an audiophile, not much can be expected anyway! lol
One thing that is hard for non professionals in the trade is that hardly a new project here comes without 5 revisions, and then 10 different people start arguing why a resistor X is much better than resistor Y. It gives you some food for thought, but also gets old quickly. The revisions are totally acceptable though. Nobody is being paid for work here, and almost nobody, except for Mr. Pass and a couple of others are actually professionals on the day-to-day life. Stuff goes wrong and must be fixed somehow.
I started to ignore most of the side discussions and adhering to what I think is important, which is mostly the original design and important revisions.
I appreciate the help of most in this forum. Unfortunately there is still a lot of "secrecy" from some members who like to show their low resolution pictures of something that is done but will not share why their system is so "marvelous". Usually saying it's trivial and obvious, details are not needed. Well, when you put together an electronics engineer with an audiophile, not much can be expected anyway! lol
I agree with the folks above, build your amp STOCK according to the 6L6 build guide and ask questions. Also study the schematic and how it relates to the physical circuit boards. In the past I've been guilty of soldering components on to a board without knowing where they are in the circuit or what they do.
Even sharing a Mouser BOM is not doable, since part numbers constantly go obsolete or out of stock.
Even sharing a Mouser BOM is not doable, since part numbers constantly go obsolete or out of stock.
One advantage of building stock is that you get something that is tried and
true and doesn't differ much from the original FW design. If you build it properly
it should work well.
I don't think a mouser cart with out of stock parts is necessarily a deal breaker,
especially if the builder takes the opportunity to learn to choose replacements.
I find the most helpful members are not at all secretive, except in cases where
an answer may involve privileged info/IP they cannot publicly disclose.
One thing I do wonder about is how easy/difficult it is to edit the build guide
that is in a thread, compared to a wiki article. I sometimes
see the same questions/issues pop up. Usually the answers are already in
the build guides, but perhaps these points can be further highlighted?
Anyway, I wish the OP success in his build.
Dennis
true and doesn't differ much from the original FW design. If you build it properly
it should work well.
I don't think a mouser cart with out of stock parts is necessarily a deal breaker,
especially if the builder takes the opportunity to learn to choose replacements.
I find the most helpful members are not at all secretive, except in cases where
an answer may involve privileged info/IP they cannot publicly disclose.
One thing I do wonder about is how easy/difficult it is to edit the build guide
that is in a thread, compared to a wiki article. I sometimes
see the same questions/issues pop up. Usually the answers are already in
the build guides, but perhaps these points can be further highlighted?
Anyway, I wish the OP success in his build.
Dennis
If it interests me
This gives me the chance to read through at my leisure, work things out, and if necessary come back and ask questions - which I often do. I've been a noob for many years now, but I'm slowly learning. Never looked at 'lectronics till 8 years ago. Still need to wrap my head around things. Though I did find NEETS and started learning this way too. And I'll be 59 one of these days.
Kevin
I have the habit of as I go through a thread of a build that I really want to tackle, where Q&A plus advice etc happens, I use the Snipping Tool, and save the relevant captures to a directory for the specific project. Pictures and schematics are also saved this way.
This gives me the chance to read through at my leisure, work things out, and if necessary come back and ask questions - which I often do. I've been a noob for many years now, but I'm slowly learning. Never looked at 'lectronics till 8 years ago. Still need to wrap my head around things. Though I did find NEETS and started learning this way too. And I'll be 59 one of these days.
Kevin
Audiophile affirmative action?
There are 27 posts before this one, every one of which suggesting that my OP idea was not very good. The consensus of these 27 people was: Man up, pay your dues. If you get stuck, you will be helped and you will be richly rewarded for the effort.
If 27 people are saying your idea is nuts and nobody is agreeing with you, then maybe you should pay attention to the 27. But I'm a little bit stubborn, so I am going to try again, this time with an analogy:
Suppose you 27 guys are successful businessmen who have been invited back to your inner city high school to give the 10th graders some advice. Your advice is very consistent: stay in school, do your homework, work hard, get your degree, have a positive attitude, follow up on opportunities.
Now some kid comes along and says: That's great advice, and if I can follow it, I will certainly become a successful contributor to society. But, frankly, I don't know if I can follow that advice. I don't have decent nutrition, my dad beats me, my friends are putting immense social pressure on me not to follow your advice and I don't know if I'm inclined or able to resist the pressure.
Then you say: Well, I had all those problems, and look at me. I made it, so you can too.
And the kid says: I admire you for your set of virtues and that you made it, but you and I both know that 90% of the kids listening to you right now will not be able to follow your advice, even though they know it's good, solid advice.
So that is my analogy. You guys all made it through the mill, and if you can do it, anybody can do it. While that may be technically true, it ignores all the wannabe audiophiles who got left behind. I believe that many people would love to participate in this activity, but they are dissuaded or they drop out, perhaps because the learning curve is too steep. Don't women like beautiful-sounding music? But there are almost zero women in this open, welcoming, free-to-join club.
This hobby seems to generally attract technically-oriented, somewhat introverted, middle-aged males, which is fine. [I'm not talking about YOU, I'm saying generally] People with this profile become the Navy SEALS of the avocation. But you don't win a war just with SEALS. You need soldiers. Man, I'm pushing the analogies.
As Papa said, "it's entertainment, not dialysis". And that is certainly true for most of us. But what if, from your perspective, it looks a lot more like dialysis than entertainment? For those people, I think that a few changes could be made to reduce the dialysis quotient and increase their probability of success.
Many people also said, "Just follow the build guides, ignore the diversions." To which I respectfully reply: I believe you have forgotten what it's like to be a complete newby, particularly one who lacks your skills and background. Trust me. I could go through the build guide and BOM for just the power supply alone, step by step, point by point, and demonstrate overwhelmingly the amount of largely unnecessary and uneducational hardship that is involved in getting through that with no skills or experience. But I won't unless you insist.
Having said that, I'm going to do it. i'm going to take you up ln your generous offers of support and I will get it done, and I will be much the wiser for it. And, I will have a beautiful Aleph J to enjoy for the rest of my life. But I could have done it with a lot less dialysis, and a lot of people, I believe, could have done it also, wanted to do it, but chose to do something else that looked more like entertainment.
There are 27 posts before this one, every one of which suggesting that my OP idea was not very good. The consensus of these 27 people was: Man up, pay your dues. If you get stuck, you will be helped and you will be richly rewarded for the effort.
If 27 people are saying your idea is nuts and nobody is agreeing with you, then maybe you should pay attention to the 27. But I'm a little bit stubborn, so I am going to try again, this time with an analogy:
Suppose you 27 guys are successful businessmen who have been invited back to your inner city high school to give the 10th graders some advice. Your advice is very consistent: stay in school, do your homework, work hard, get your degree, have a positive attitude, follow up on opportunities.
Now some kid comes along and says: That's great advice, and if I can follow it, I will certainly become a successful contributor to society. But, frankly, I don't know if I can follow that advice. I don't have decent nutrition, my dad beats me, my friends are putting immense social pressure on me not to follow your advice and I don't know if I'm inclined or able to resist the pressure.
Then you say: Well, I had all those problems, and look at me. I made it, so you can too.
And the kid says: I admire you for your set of virtues and that you made it, but you and I both know that 90% of the kids listening to you right now will not be able to follow your advice, even though they know it's good, solid advice.
So that is my analogy. You guys all made it through the mill, and if you can do it, anybody can do it. While that may be technically true, it ignores all the wannabe audiophiles who got left behind. I believe that many people would love to participate in this activity, but they are dissuaded or they drop out, perhaps because the learning curve is too steep. Don't women like beautiful-sounding music? But there are almost zero women in this open, welcoming, free-to-join club.
This hobby seems to generally attract technically-oriented, somewhat introverted, middle-aged males, which is fine. [I'm not talking about YOU, I'm saying generally] People with this profile become the Navy SEALS of the avocation. But you don't win a war just with SEALS. You need soldiers. Man, I'm pushing the analogies.
As Papa said, "it's entertainment, not dialysis". And that is certainly true for most of us. But what if, from your perspective, it looks a lot more like dialysis than entertainment? For those people, I think that a few changes could be made to reduce the dialysis quotient and increase their probability of success.
Many people also said, "Just follow the build guides, ignore the diversions." To which I respectfully reply: I believe you have forgotten what it's like to be a complete newby, particularly one who lacks your skills and background. Trust me. I could go through the build guide and BOM for just the power supply alone, step by step, point by point, and demonstrate overwhelmingly the amount of largely unnecessary and uneducational hardship that is involved in getting through that with no skills or experience. But I won't unless you insist.
Having said that, I'm going to do it. i'm going to take you up ln your generous offers of support and I will get it done, and I will be much the wiser for it. And, I will have a beautiful Aleph J to enjoy for the rest of my life. But I could have done it with a lot less dialysis, and a lot of people, I believe, could have done it also, wanted to do it, but chose to do something else that looked more like entertainment.
nobody said that you're wrong, quite contrary
most of replies are made as affirmative anecdotes, some are more serious ..... but let's try putting one stance in one or few sentences :
Take any of Hafler Kit Manuals, or - older ones - Dynaco; read them, and try to imagine how much time is invested in writing one........ even nowadays, with handy editing tools we all have, biggest investment is certainly intelectual
That can be justified only in case of hefty commercial article ........ and none of these (we are having here on mind) are commercial in that way , or amount
remember - nobody here is exactly paid for helping anyone ........ and that's main reason why I'm hanging here , always feeling warm around heart, just thinking how much people around invested energy and time to teach me, during all these years
(while being stupid, or just plainly good-mannered, to not see how little I learned
)
most of replies are made as affirmative anecdotes, some are more serious ..... but let's try putting one stance in one or few sentences :
Take any of Hafler Kit Manuals, or - older ones - Dynaco; read them, and try to imagine how much time is invested in writing one........ even nowadays, with handy editing tools we all have, biggest investment is certainly intelectual
That can be justified only in case of hefty commercial article ........ and none of these (we are having here on mind) are commercial in that way , or amount
remember - nobody here is exactly paid for helping anyone ........ and that's main reason why I'm hanging here , always feeling warm around heart, just thinking how much people around invested energy and time to teach me, during all these years
(while being stupid, or just plainly good-mannered, to not see how little I learned
)i agree about the kit. That is probably a bridge too far. But wouldn't it be possible for one of the high-end amps, say F5, could have a complete, idiot-proof, think-and-do book level instruction set to get people on the cusp up to the next level of excitement? Success breeding success, and all that?
What you want is perfectly understandable, but the apparent simplicity comes after much work and planning.
Look at ads in some of the old hi-fi magazines from the 50s-60s. Everyone it seems was building tuner/amp/preamp kits
(speaker kits too), and most of the audio companies had them: Dynaco, Eico, Scott, Harman-Kardon, Knight,
Heath, Acrosound, Bogen, Lafayette, Fisher, and even McIntosh, among numerous others.
This is how hi-fi began, a box of parts and a well-written manual. The companies didn't want
to have to repair a nonworking unit and lose all their profit on it, as well as have an unhappy customer.
They were very careful in writing the manuals so the customer could exactly replicate their prototype.
But consumerism arose, and even Dynaco eventually offered factory built units. They hired local housewives,
who consistently did a superb job of assembly, despite knowing nothing about electronics. And then
cheap imported factory built audio gear started arriving, and that was that.
Look at ads in some of the old hi-fi magazines from the 50s-60s. Everyone it seems was building tuner/amp/preamp kits
(speaker kits too), and most of the audio companies had them: Dynaco, Eico, Scott, Harman-Kardon, Knight,
Heath, Acrosound, Bogen, Lafayette, Fisher, and even McIntosh, among numerous others.
This is how hi-fi began, a box of parts and a well-written manual. The companies didn't want
to have to repair a nonworking unit and lose all their profit on it, as well as have an unhappy customer.
They were very careful in writing the manuals so the customer could exactly replicate their prototype.
But consumerism arose, and even Dynaco eventually offered factory built units. They hired local housewives,
who consistently did a superb job of assembly, despite knowing nothing about electronics. And then
cheap imported factory built audio gear started arriving, and that was that.
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I had zero experience with electronics but I had 3 things going for me 1) I’m pretty good at math 2) I’ve soldered stuff in high school and 3) I’m fearless, sometimes too much. I was the kid who jumped off a friends roof into the next door neighbors pool during the summer breaks. Of those 3 being fearless was the most helpful. Just read the guide, take your time and dig in. Don’t over think it. So long you adhere to proper safety techniques, build a bulb tester and the worst thing that can happen is burning up some resistors. I remember I wired up a 6C33C wrong and red platted it, then some internal fireworks ensued. Wish I had it on video cause it was awesome to watch but I learned quick what not to do. I’m still a newb but love building this stuff. So I say F it, just start; You’ll be happy you did
The Hafler DH-200 was one of the first really good sounding solid state amps that was available in kit form. It came with a very good step by step assembly manual which made it reasonably easy for electronics enthusiasts to build a working amp. The key point is that the kit assumed some familiarity with simple electrical assembly, such as an enthusiast might already have. The Dynaco Stereo 70 was an earlier kit to build a tube amp. No one who built these amps had access to the Internet, because it didn’t exist. What we did was start small and work our way up to more complex electronics. We read magazines. We even made mistakes. We spent time at the local Radio Shack.
DiyAudio is a different experience because it is run entirely by volunteers, and is only a small part of the vast resources that are now available online. There is no company behind the effort, and no payroll to fund professionally produced instruction and assembly manuals. All of what you see here are individual gifts of time and energy.
There is definitely a learning curve to building amplifiers, but there is so much more information available to those who wish to do so. It’s just not all in one place. Consider the learning process as an investment.
DiyAudio is a different experience because it is run entirely by volunteers, and is only a small part of the vast resources that are now available online. There is no company behind the effort, and no payroll to fund professionally produced instruction and assembly manuals. All of what you see here are individual gifts of time and energy.
There is definitely a learning curve to building amplifiers, but there is so much more information available to those who wish to do so. It’s just not all in one place. Consider the learning process as an investment.
I understand the feeling of being overwhelmed.
Break the project into simple tasks and set goals for yourself to do 2 hours everyday if possible.
Write it down then do it.
Start with the things you can do.
Eg
1) Today I will write up a list for all the parts I need.
2) Today I will order the parts
3) Today I will begin soldering components to the psu board
Just make it happen.
Start your own personal build thread, ask questions along the way.
Take pictures.
Ask if any members live near you. They may even come to your home to help.
People in the Pass Labs forum are generally speaking a great bunch of people, they will help.
Do it.
Your idea is not dumb, it's just a lot of work to provide that kind of service for free.
None of us make money from helping people and we're also busy with our own projects.
The diyaudio store is in the best position to do something like this, but if you just tell yourself you can do this, and just do it, you will get there.
If you buy one of Zen Mod's projects and participate in his thread you will get help.
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I believe it is already here, except that it’s not compiled into a single simple set of instructions. (6L6‘s build guides being the closest to this objective)
You will find other people’s build guides around the web, none I found so far come nearly close to it.
That said, I disagree in parts: even though it’s as tedious as it is, i have begun to like the endlessity of the forums, with bloody hahaha pico, mighty zm and all those freaks (no insult intended [emoji1590]) and their cryptic comments.
The only thing I hope to see one day: an improvement of the forum‘s search/filter/subthread capabilities. (Imagine: if our contributions could be tagged by us, like stackoverflow for example...)
Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for this post! Now I have the perfect answer for SWMBO – “why do you want to build another amplifier?”
Congratulations Alan – looks like you have decided to join the FAB! Mission (of this thread) accomplished.
The other thing that may be overlooked is the time it would take to do what you are suggesting. Someone (or someones) would need to agree with your payback vs. effort evaluation.
No question (from me) that what you're suggesting may help bring more people one more step into the hobby. However, just trying to give back to the community a bit and putting up a thread on my first First Watt build (having been in your shoes) took me over 50 man-hours... The number of views was not impressive. So, clearly, my implementation was not correct.
All-in-all, I don't disagree with your point at all. I just don't think you'll find too many takers on creating it for you. Noobs also have a completely different POV of what to keep an eye out for vs. someone that has already built their first amp. I started out asking questions re: what resistor power ratings meant, but all my questions were answered happily and politely after I showed an effort to learn myself.
What I'd suggest is perhaps to choose a project. Document it flawlessly (or the best you can) along the way with pictures of each step a la 6L6. Note along the way where you had struggles, questions etc. and how they were overcome with links to relevant posts and/or directly in your words what you learned.
Compile that into your own thread and/or guide. You can post it here on DIY Audio and/or on another platform that makes updates and maintenance a bit easier when BoMs need to be changed etc. Then ... Maintain it.
If that provides you with immense pleasure and reward - wash, rinse, repeat for other projects. You'll have created what you seek.
I'd imagine ... that many, many people would contribute their time (I would) if you started the ball rolling with your first project and organized the effort. If you're worried about your technical knowledge... use others for that. You contribute the writing (in noob language), picture taking, organization, documentation, and posting.
Again... wonderful idea. I wanted to provide one extra layer of perspective re: the effort it may take to pull it off vs. your own idea of the reward.
If you choose to take on the organization of such an effort, count me in to help.
Another alternative ... Bottlehead. They create well-documented kits with parts pre-selected and excellent instructions. I'd encourage you to compare the raw parts cost vs. their kits to help determine what at least one business charges for the effort vs. people donating their time. It may also be worth noting that they are particularly careful about how they distribute their instructions ...
No question (from me) that what you're suggesting may help bring more people one more step into the hobby. However, just trying to give back to the community a bit and putting up a thread on my first First Watt build (having been in your shoes) took me over 50 man-hours... The number of views was not impressive. So, clearly, my implementation was not correct.
All-in-all, I don't disagree with your point at all. I just don't think you'll find too many takers on creating it for you. Noobs also have a completely different POV of what to keep an eye out for vs. someone that has already built their first amp. I started out asking questions re: what resistor power ratings meant, but all my questions were answered happily and politely after I showed an effort to learn myself.
What I'd suggest is perhaps to choose a project. Document it flawlessly (or the best you can) along the way with pictures of each step a la 6L6. Note along the way where you had struggles, questions etc. and how they were overcome with links to relevant posts and/or directly in your words what you learned.
Compile that into your own thread and/or guide. You can post it here on DIY Audio and/or on another platform that makes updates and maintenance a bit easier when BoMs need to be changed etc. Then ... Maintain it.
If that provides you with immense pleasure and reward - wash, rinse, repeat for other projects. You'll have created what you seek.
I'd imagine ... that many, many people would contribute their time (I would) if you started the ball rolling with your first project and organized the effort. If you're worried about your technical knowledge... use others for that. You contribute the writing (in noob language), picture taking, organization, documentation, and posting.
Again... wonderful idea. I wanted to provide one extra layer of perspective re: the effort it may take to pull it off vs. your own idea of the reward.
If you choose to take on the organization of such an effort, count me in to help.
Another alternative ... Bottlehead. They create well-documented kits with parts pre-selected and excellent instructions. I'd encourage you to compare the raw parts cost vs. their kits to help determine what at least one business charges for the effort vs. people donating their time. It may also be worth noting that they are particularly careful about how they distribute their instructions ...