Hey y'all,
Been poking around here for a while - but I'm considering making an amp!
I've not made much but I'm motivated to power some new (to me) ADS m1290's with some more juice - currently using a Linn Majik-I which is pushing about 66w to each channel at 4ohms.
I think I'd like to get to about 100-200w per channel - Ideally, 150-ish... my questions are 2...
Do you think I'd be getting in WAY over my head trying to make something like this (I can solder and follow instructions, just seems like there is some level of decision making and customization to get to where I'm trying to go) and secondly, do you think I can do this in a 5UDelux F5T v2, or would I need to get to two separate chassis and make a pair of monoblocks F5T v3?
Hoping I can do it in one chassis to not start my project with $800 in chassis haha... hoping to save all that money for pretty components
Thanks,
John
Been poking around here for a while - but I'm considering making an amp!
I've not made much but I'm motivated to power some new (to me) ADS m1290's with some more juice - currently using a Linn Majik-I which is pushing about 66w to each channel at 4ohms.
I think I'd like to get to about 100-200w per channel - Ideally, 150-ish... my questions are 2...
Do you think I'd be getting in WAY over my head trying to make something like this (I can solder and follow instructions, just seems like there is some level of decision making and customization to get to where I'm trying to go) and secondly, do you think I can do this in a 5UDelux F5T v2, or would I need to get to two separate chassis and make a pair of monoblocks F5T v3?
Hoping I can do it in one chassis to not start my project with $800 in chassis haha... hoping to save all that money for pretty components
Thanks,
John
Honestly. If you are looking for 150-200 Watts class A is not for for you. And pretty much impossible to do in a single chassis unless fan/water cooled. Also, probably not the best first time project.
If you can get by with 50 Watts it can be done in a single 5U chassis.
You need to ask yourself, do you really need the wattage?
FWIW, I'm in the same boat with less sensitive speaker sets - 87-89db 4 & 6 ohm towers, and in a large-ish room to boot. I, too, considered the F5T, but in the end I settled on a (long-term, tentative) plan to build a set of F4 mono bridged amps because of how people described the sound of the F4. I think I read that Zen Mod and 6L6 currently prefer the F4 themselves, and they've listened to a lot of amps.
The F4 in mono bridged mode can deliver 100W to 2 ohm loads, which is a lot of current.
But I'm not starting with a set of F4s to begin with. I'm starting with a single F6 to find out what a single class-A stereo amp sounds like, because I've been told that class-A amps deliver better than you'd think just based on the specs. The F6 can deliver more power as a balanced monobloc for a 4 ohm speaker, which means I can do an experiment with that to find out if that power level is sufficient. A finished F6 can be re-used to build an F4 just by swapping the amp boards and keeping the same chassis and PSU, so the cost of conversion is low. The F6 also has voltage gain, which makes it easier to slot into my current system without having to upgrade my pre-amp. I believe Zen Mod is feeding his F4 with a Pass Labs X-10 pre followed by a Bottlehead SEX tube pre, either for sufficient voltage gain or to get a tube-like sound, or both. If I go the route of dual F4, I will probably end up with a BA-3 gain stage as pre-amp with a Bottlehead follower myself, but those are expenditures for way down the line after I've confirmed that the amp will actually work for me.
Anyway, that's just my plan based on all of the feedback I've read on the higher-powered first watt amps that I considered (F5T, BA3, F4, balanced F6, etc). Food for thought.
The F4 in mono bridged mode can deliver 100W to 2 ohm loads, which is a lot of current.
But I'm not starting with a set of F4s to begin with. I'm starting with a single F6 to find out what a single class-A stereo amp sounds like, because I've been told that class-A amps deliver better than you'd think just based on the specs. The F6 can deliver more power as a balanced monobloc for a 4 ohm speaker, which means I can do an experiment with that to find out if that power level is sufficient. A finished F6 can be re-used to build an F4 just by swapping the amp boards and keeping the same chassis and PSU, so the cost of conversion is low. The F6 also has voltage gain, which makes it easier to slot into my current system without having to upgrade my pre-amp. I believe Zen Mod is feeding his F4 with a Pass Labs X-10 pre followed by a Bottlehead SEX tube pre, either for sufficient voltage gain or to get a tube-like sound, or both. If I go the route of dual F4, I will probably end up with a BA-3 gain stage as pre-amp with a Bottlehead follower myself, but those are expenditures for way down the line after I've confirmed that the amp will actually work for me.
Anyway, that's just my plan based on all of the feedback I've read on the higher-powered first watt amps that I considered (F5T, BA3, F4, balanced F6, etc). Food for thought.
nope , that's someone else , with PL X-10 etc.
ZM is poor bugger , not having any of these expensive thingies ....
besides , he's lazy bstrd , even not having his own
to feed Papa's Koan F4 with it .... straight from DAC or tuner or whatever , just occasionally using Iron SE , set to 6db gain
though - I agree about versatility of F4 ...... the world is your oyster , once when you make your first one
as second thought ....... I'm always sayin' - don't use force , use bigger hammer ; in other words - use bigger speakers, not bigger amp
ZM is poor bugger , not having any of these expensive thingies ....
besides , he's lazy bstrd , even not having his own
to feed Papa's Koan F4 with it .... straight from DAC or tuner or whatever , just occasionally using Iron SE , set to 6db gainthough - I agree about versatility of F4 ...... the world is your oyster , once when you make your first one
as second thought ....... I'm always sayin' - don't use force , use bigger hammer ; in other words - use bigger speakers, not bigger amp
You're right, it was wdavis at A guide to building the Pass F4 amplifier. and for some reason I attributed it to you because of your reply.
I'm always willing to be wrong, that's how you learn.
I'm always willing to be wrong, that's how you learn.
Mr. Pass article is highly educative how match power amplifiers and speakers efficiency with the room space
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_cas_2015.pdf
Best regards
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_cas_2015.pdf
Best regards
Thanks for all the comments. These forums are great, and part of what makes me want to tackle a project like this.
A couple of thoughts having read your comments.
1) Hikari1, I guess I don't need more loudness, these are big speakers in a fairly small room (room acoustic treatment coming soon haha)... what I'm really after is a fun project and something that will sound GREAT, and allow these speakers to really sing... not necessarily louder but I guess my thought is with more power perhaps the woofers will get moving around more and everything will be a bit more full and rich (I notice these towers lack a little in the low end).
2) Consecrator, I like that idea of building out a pair of F4's also - I read the 6L6's comments on how much more he enjoyed the sound (I think it was in his build guide of the F4)... Maybe that's the project for me... Do you know what I could expect for power output on a monoblock F4 (probably single-ended, but I'm looking at a used Schiit Audio preamp that has balanced in/out). Also, not sure if you have any forecast of cost to build (not including the chassis, which I suppose would be a 4U or 5U deluxe to make things easier for me)?
3) Hikari1, I think my speakers are 87/dB, 4-ohm? At least that's what the sticker says on the bottom... see here. I could be wrong, just one source I've found on them.
4) Soundhappy - I guess maybe I don't need more watts as much as I just want some more low-end in them? I read somewhere online that they 'really start to sing' with more power (~150w)... maybe I just want a small EQ to tweak up the low end a tad? I don't think this would stop me from building my own amp (sounds like a GREAT project)... but maybe it influences my decision on what one to make.
Thanks all for your help - amazing forum.
A couple of thoughts having read your comments.
1) Hikari1, I guess I don't need more loudness, these are big speakers in a fairly small room (room acoustic treatment coming soon haha)... what I'm really after is a fun project and something that will sound GREAT, and allow these speakers to really sing... not necessarily louder but I guess my thought is with more power perhaps the woofers will get moving around more and everything will be a bit more full and rich (I notice these towers lack a little in the low end).
2) Consecrator, I like that idea of building out a pair of F4's also - I read the 6L6's comments on how much more he enjoyed the sound (I think it was in his build guide of the F4)... Maybe that's the project for me... Do you know what I could expect for power output on a monoblock F4 (probably single-ended, but I'm looking at a used Schiit Audio preamp that has balanced in/out). Also, not sure if you have any forecast of cost to build (not including the chassis, which I suppose would be a 4U or 5U deluxe to make things easier for me)?
3) Hikari1, I think my speakers are 87/dB, 4-ohm? At least that's what the sticker says on the bottom... see here. I could be wrong, just one source I've found on them.
4) Soundhappy - I guess maybe I don't need more watts as much as I just want some more low-end in them? I read somewhere online that they 'really start to sing' with more power (~150w)... maybe I just want a small EQ to tweak up the low end a tad? I don't think this would stop me from building my own amp (sounds like a GREAT project)... but maybe it influences my decision on what one to make.
Thanks all for your help - amazing forum.
I have 86dB efficient minimonitors in a fairly small listening room. The 25W Aleph J amplifier is more than enough power for me - lots of rock, lots of jazz, and a smattering of baroque, all at moderate levels.
And really the amount of power needed for a pair of speakers is dependent not only on specs but the type of music you listen to and/or the volume you listen at.
For example, when I was younger I had a pair of UREI 813A speakers that could make you deaf with only 50Ws of tube power. Loud enough that I could hear 'em playing rock music down in the basement, while I was standing in the neighbor's yard. But the same amp wasn't up to the task of driving a pair of Magnepan 1.6QRs. A Threshold S/500 (250WPC) was needed to get proper "scale" in my then large listening room.
And really the amount of power needed for a pair of speakers is dependent not only on specs but the type of music you listen to and/or the volume you listen at.
For example, when I was younger I had a pair of UREI 813A speakers that could make you deaf with only 50Ws of tube power. Loud enough that I could hear 'em playing rock music down in the basement, while I was standing in the neighbor's yard. But the same amp wasn't up to the task of driving a pair of Magnepan 1.6QRs. A Threshold S/500 (250WPC) was needed to get proper "scale" in my then large listening room.
Hi,
I've always hated comments like "they really start to sing with 150 watts of power". What does that actually mean?
Does it mean they sound best when you are driving them with 150 watts of power? So, does that mean they like to play loud OR does that mean they are inefficient?
OR does it mean that the speakers present a nasty load? i.e, There is some range that needs a lot of current to drive? So you need to use an amp that is capable of delivering 150 watts of power just to fulfill that load requirement?
I think you need to know what that means..... if you are near a good brick and mortar store, you may be able to swing an "in home" demo to find out what's the deal with big power. or you may want to rent a PA amp with a LOT of power....
But certainly, before I would spend all that time and money on building an amp, I want to be pretty sure that it is going to suit my needs. And I want to know what to expect as different from now.
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_power_supplies.pdf
Superb useful article a Mr.Pass classic.
Maybe for first 100 watt´s DIY amp build You can be interested by
AB100 Class AB Power Amplifier
I'm working on a BOM for all of this right now. It's pretty solid and I'm 90% confident it is correct.
The current price for building JUST the PSU, in a 4U deluxe chassis, assuming you do not have any of the materials just laying about, is ~$700. This includes a dim bulb tester, the wires and terminals for making connections, and shipping costs from various suppliers.
I'll do up a BOM for the amp boards when I go to build them, but right now I'm focusing on getting a PSU built into a chassis and documenting the process for when I build a second one.
It means they are Magnepans.
Haha! I had the Magnepan 1.7i and always shake my head when people say they need 150+ watts. Granted, I have a small listening room but the Passlabs Int-60, Audio Research Vsi-75 and even the "ancient" Audio Research CA-50 drove them all day long without strain. In fact, the Int-60 rarely left Class A. Maybe if someone is using a cheap Class A/B amp, or have a MUCH larger listening room, this is a true statement but it certainly wasn't my experience with the above mentioned integrated amps.
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