Reading 6L6's post about BA3 amp with a complementary output and I am confused as to the term complementary as he also refers to a single-ended output design. Is complementary being referred to as the complementary transistors vs. a single transistor within the circuit? Or is complementary referring to the output connectors in terms of balanced vs. single-ended? In his diagrams and pictures it appears that the actual connections are single ended yet he states that he is building a complementary front end, (that can accept either single-ended or balanced inputs), with a complementary output stage.
Hi,
if I understand correctly, you refer to building a integrated amplifier, so to take the BA3 as a front end, and then -- the "complementary" or to the single ended one, as the power amplifier.
Or, to put it differently:
BA3 (pre-amp) --> to A or B
A: BA1, the single ended power amplifier module
B: BA2 (or F4), as the push-pull power amplifier.
A is, surprise!, a single ended amp, and B is, like Russellc mentioned, a push pull output.
Both A and B don't have a balanced output, they have the music signal amplified on +, and ground on -.
The BA3-b is also really nice, it accepts both single ended and balanced input, and puts out a balanced signal. But you can also use it single ended only.
If you use a balanced pre amp like the BA3-b (Impasse or others), then you can build 2 BA1/BA2/F4 and run then mono, which gives you, if my memory servery me right, 100W at 4Ohm. Plenty of power, if your speakers want more, they have a flawed design (of cause my opinion, as everything I write and doesn't appear in "xxx").
Hope this helps
Matthias
if I understand correctly, you refer to building a integrated amplifier, so to take the BA3 as a front end, and then -- the "complementary" or to the single ended one, as the power amplifier.
Or, to put it differently:
BA3 (pre-amp) --> to A or B
A: BA1, the single ended power amplifier module
B: BA2 (or F4), as the push-pull power amplifier.
A is, surprise!, a single ended amp, and B is, like Russellc mentioned, a push pull output.
Both A and B don't have a balanced output, they have the music signal amplified on +, and ground on -.
The BA3-b is also really nice, it accepts both single ended and balanced input, and puts out a balanced signal. But you can also use it single ended only.
If you use a balanced pre amp like the BA3-b (Impasse or others), then you can build 2 BA1/BA2/F4 and run then mono, which gives you, if my memory servery me right, 100W at 4Ohm. Plenty of power, if your speakers want more, they have a flawed design (of cause my opinion, as everything I write and doesn't appear in "xxx").
Hope this helps
Matthias
Neither. It is (BA3 complementary) a push pull output. If you want single ended, you must use the single ended output boards and bias boards.
I think your confusion is between balanaced and single ended ( using RCA plugs) amplifier topology. If you want a balanced push pull BA3 amplifier, you will want mono blocks, each one will need 2 BA3 amplifier boards wired in balanced configuration.
I'm sure this is clear as mud, maybe reading the BBA3 thread will help.
This is totally different from a BA3 amplifier running in single ended output configuration, which had nothing to do with it being balanced or not. That probably made it less clear....
Russellc
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Maybe both - input and output.
BA3 pre - unbalanced input and unbalanced output
BA3B pre - balanced input and balanced output, can be used as:
balanced input and balanced output
balanced input and unbalanced output
unbalanced input and balanced output
unbalanced input and unbalanced output (don't see the point of this, may as well use BA3 instead)
BA1 unsymmetrical (asymetric) 'single ended' - output devices all the same polarity
BA2 symmetrical 'complementary' - output contains both device polarities N & P
Just to add to the confusion, two mono amplifiers driven by a balanced signal is not a balanced amplifier, the output is called a H bridge and the speaker is a Bridge Tied Load (BTL)
Yes, still confused.
I read the BA1, BA2, and BA3 articles by Nelson Pass yet, I am still confused. An amplifier output circuit can be balanced by design yet still be wired for single ended output to a single ended output speaker terminal? If this is the case, (only utilizing single-ended connectors/speakers), then you do not get the benefit of the increased power output from the balanced circuit design? For example, the F6 on the first watt website says 25 watts at 8 ohms and 50 at 4 ohms, is this for balanced output or single-ended output?
I read the BA1, BA2, and BA3 articles by Nelson Pass yet, I am still confused. An amplifier output circuit can be balanced by design yet still be wired for single ended output to a single ended output speaker terminal? If this is the case, (only utilizing single-ended connectors/speakers), then you do not get the benefit of the increased power output from the balanced circuit design? For example, the F6 on the first watt website says 25 watts at 8 ohms and 50 at 4 ohms, is this for balanced output or single-ended output?
Not the speaker end, that's just the amps output. You can have a single ended amp, or a push pull amp. This has nothing to do with whether or not amp is balanced.
If you have a balanced preamp, it is nice to have a balanced power amp to go with it. If you preamp isn't balanced there is still a way to use the unbalanced (single ended) preamp with the balanced power amp.
A single ended power amp, like a 300b tube amp, or an Aleph pass amp, has nothing to do with it being balanced or not.
To add to the confusion, one with a balance preamp might like to have a single ended output on it in order to use it with a power amp that isn't balanced.
Maybe read up on the BA3 power amp, study 6l6's build guide. Once you see it clearly, read up on the balanced BA3 (BBA3). Assuming both are "complementary" or push pull, the difference will be clear. The other "single ended" version of BA3 has nothing to do g to do with whether or not the amp is balanced or not.
Balanced amp and pre amp will not be connected together with RCA plugs, but 3 conductor plugs.
Look also at 6l6's Aleph J build guide. Here, we have a single ended out put Aleph amp, but you will notice he includes both RCA inputs and the 3 conductor inputs, while AlephJ isn't balanced, you can still use a balanced pre with it. Again, the fact that the Aleph J is single ended, (like a single ended 300b amp) has nothing to do with whether or not it is balanced, which it isn't.
Separate the terms single ended outputs, from push pull outputs in amplifiers, from whether or not the particular amp is balanced. Output here refers to the output stage, not whether or not the amp is balanced or not.
Russellc
If you have a balanced preamp, it is nice to have a balanced power amp to go with it. If you preamp isn't balanced there is still a way to use the unbalanced (single ended) preamp with the balanced power amp.
A single ended power amp, like a 300b tube amp, or an Aleph pass amp, has nothing to do with it being balanced or not.
To add to the confusion, one with a balance preamp might like to have a single ended output on it in order to use it with a power amp that isn't balanced.
Maybe read up on the BA3 power amp, study 6l6's build guide. Once you see it clearly, read up on the balanced BA3 (BBA3). Assuming both are "complementary" or push pull, the difference will be clear. The other "single ended" version of BA3 has nothing to do g to do with whether or not the amp is balanced or not.
Balanced amp and pre amp will not be connected together with RCA plugs, but 3 conductor plugs.
Look also at 6l6's Aleph J build guide. Here, we have a single ended out put Aleph amp, but you will notice he includes both RCA inputs and the 3 conductor inputs, while AlephJ isn't balanced, you can still use a balanced pre with it. Again, the fact that the Aleph J is single ended, (like a single ended 300b amp) has nothing to do with whether or not it is balanced, which it isn't.
Separate the terms single ended outputs, from push pull outputs in amplifiers, from whether or not the particular amp is balanced. Output here refers to the output stage, not whether or not the amp is balanced or not.
Russellc
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Neither. F6 is a push pull amp, and it is not balanced. Now look at the Aleph J. It's output is single ended not push pull. See how it puts less into 4 ohms? It isn't balanced either. None of the First Watt amps are. People here have built them balanced, however.
Russellc
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Hmm, I'll take a stab at this.
If we look at buffers, the B1 is a single ended circuit http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_b1_man.pdf ie, theres one transistor doing the work into a current source.
The B1V2 B1 Rev. 2 is a push pull or complementary circuit. ie each transistor is working in tandem. The article http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_zv6.pdf Should help you out there.
The burning amps were intended to be an experiment in mix and matching single ended and complementary front ends, with single ended and push pull output stages. The ba3 is a complementary or push pull front end.
Signal is normally referenced as Balanced or Un-balanced, when between devices.
If we look at buffers, the B1 is a single ended circuit http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_b1_man.pdf ie, theres one transistor doing the work into a current source.
The B1V2 B1 Rev. 2 is a push pull or complementary circuit. ie each transistor is working in tandem. The article http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_zv6.pdf Should help you out there.
The burning amps were intended to be an experiment in mix and matching single ended and complementary front ends, with single ended and push pull output stages. The ba3 is a complementary or push pull front end.
Signal is normally referenced as Balanced or Un-balanced, when between devices.
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You could build BA3 identical to 6l6's guide. Then build the BBA3 balanced front end as pre amp. (Or any other balanced preamp) Now it will be clear, and you can build another BA3, wire both you BA3 amps in mono blocks balanced configuration and enjoy. Or keep your first BA3 in stereo, and enjoy it with a regular non balanced preamp.
Then, you can build a third BA3 with single ended out puts and compare and contrast the different output stage topologies.
Russellc
Then, you can build a third BA3 with single ended out puts and compare and contrast the different output stage topologies.
Russellc
I guess best practice would be to be sure you understand what balanced components are and decide if you even need or desire that. If you decide you don't need balanced components, then familiarize yourself with difference in push pull and single ended output stages. Then decide between those two.
Russellc
Russellc
Hey Russellc, thanks for your replies. Would like to build an f4 after reading 6L6's f4 build post along with a suitable preamp. 6L6 seemed to be sold on using what is called an empasse preamp about which I was able to find the original article but I am unable to find any build guide to the empasse preamp. Probably will just build the ba-3 frontend as a preamp for the f4 at first so I can use the 6L6 build guide. I am sure I will learn a lot from this alone and will be a great place to start for a beginner.
Would like to eventually build two f4's and run them dual mono with enough power for Ohm Walsh speakers which are 6 ohms, 88 dB @ 2.8V or maybe even some Thiel speakers which are 4 ohms, 90dB @2.8v. Reading the f4 manual there is parallel mono and balanced mono, parallel giving 100 Watts into 2 Ohms, balanced 100 Watts into 8 Ohms.
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