This happens all the time, it is very easy to fool listeners this way. Works pretty much 100% of the time.
This is one of the reasons that serious tests are double blind. Listeners should not know what is playing at any time.
It is also the reason why, for instance, in medicine tests there is always a control group that gets placebos without anyone knowing - not even the testers, that is critical - who gets the medicine and who gets the placebo.
It is all so obvious when you know something about how people tick.
Jan
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Don't feed the troll. Amir is known to pick fights and keep em simmering. He did that with Schiit Audio, and despite his "scientific worldview" he recently began shilling for MQA. There are many other examples where he opted to lecture people on the rights and wrongs of audio.
He most certainly views the FW/Pass constituency as a juicy target for his sneers.
He most certainly views the FW/Pass constituency as a juicy target for his sneers.
And in some cases the placebo actually has an effect, because the patients believe that they are taking the real medicine.
And in some cases the placebo actually has an effect, because the patients believe that they are taking the real medicine.
Indeed!
A few years ago I put two class-D amps in two monoblocks and labelled one as class-AB and the other as class-A. Listeners of an audio club consistently rated the class-A above the class-AB. Go figure.
Jan
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Should I assume the class-D amps were identical?
You're a sneaky man. We'll have to keep our eye on you...
I actually try to "trick" myself and sometimes others knowing that we all have biases / pre-conceived notions. Plus, I'm trying to learn. I built two identical chassis with identical power supplies. I want to see if I (or others) can reliably hear a difference between amps nevertheless be consistent regarding a preference. Family or friends will swap input and speaker cables between the amps, and I don't peek. I run 5 different amps at this point between the same two chassis: F4, F5, M2x (with its various IPSs), SissySIT, and Aleph J. Because I have to swap the amp boards in and out of the chassis, I know which two are "in-play", but I don't know which is hooked up. I may add other amps into the mix both commercial and DIY.
The challenge is level matching, which none of my friends, family (or me) can do reliably. So, we ear-ball? it.
On a related note - I had a great time with my brother not too long ago. He was absolutely convinced that his CD player would sound better than a streaming solution I wanted him to try out. I was simply hoping for equal or proving that we could not reliably tell the difference. I was able to pick out the streaming solution against the CD player and preferred it 8 of 8 times. He picked it 6 of 8 and preferred it 6 out of the 6 and said he could not hear a difference in 2. We played 8 tracks twice. Once for each of us. We did not tell each other our results until we were done. We used the same tracks ripped to FLAC from the CDs being played. He'd swap sources for me, and then I did it for him. Does that mean streaming solutions are better or even always equal to CD players or transport / DAC combos. Nope. It just means he's happy to be able to access all his music at the touch of a button and can save quite a bit of valuable space in a small apartment while being convinced it's better. And maybe it is.
None of this would stand up to scrutiny or peer review as a scientific study, but it sure is fun.
I also have no clue whatsoever whether long-term or short-term A/Bs are better... but... in general my little test group has been able to more reliably pick differences (if not preferences) when we use one full song that's well known to the person. We tried songs we didn't know too, thinking we may be biasing ourselves by wanting to hear a certain voice a certain way. That didn't seem to work as well. My hypothesis is that we may do better with music we know b/c we listen more carefully to the differences vs. trying to absorb the overall experience of a new song. Who knows? It's fun. I'm convinced that some people should only be allowed to listen to 1kHz test tones at 1W near-field through 101dB/1W/1m horns.
I am often surprised, but I'm NEVER disappointed. I just listen to what makes me happy. It turns out that I am very fortunate to have a lot of things that make me very happy. If kids are over and press a bunch of buttons, so be it, I probably can't tell the difference. No need to be upset. The twisted part, is that even though I'm totally thrilled, I'll keep on building more stuff.
When anyone asks me which amp is my favorite, my answer is always, the one playing right now.
I plan on using the H2 generator *gasp* for similar antics and learning.
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Fool around with an M2x. It ships to the customer with five different unity gain buffers that can be easily installed or removed without soldering. Five very different circuits, some with JFETs, some with BJTs, some with ICs, some with obsolete components, some with active production SMD parts. (link)
Unity . Gain . Buffers . Let that sink in. Amplifiers whose gain is unity (1.0).
Listener responses vary widely. Some love BUF1 but hate BUF5. Some hate BUF1 but love BUF5. Some love them all and find that whatever sonic differences may exist, are so small and subtle that in effect, they all sound alike.
It's an amusing experiment that you can perform upon yourself. Do you hear differences among the five unity gain buffers? Do you have favorites? Least-favorites?
It's all entertainment and I think you'll find buffer swapping to be unusually entertaining.
Unity . Gain . Buffers . Let that sink in. Amplifiers whose gain is unity (1.0).
Listener responses vary widely. Some love BUF1 but hate BUF5. Some hate BUF1 but love BUF5. Some love them all and find that whatever sonic differences may exist, are so small and subtle that in effect, they all sound alike.
It's an amusing experiment that you can perform upon yourself. Do you hear differences among the five unity gain buffers? Do you have favorites? Least-favorites?
It's all entertainment and I think you'll find buffer swapping to be unusually entertaining.
Hi Mark - I concur. I've had a very good time comparing the buffers. I do have preferences. Whether those preferences are founded in science... I dunno. It's much harder for me b/c I can't compare the boards blind. I don't have anyone that can swap out the boards for me. Maybe I need to build another... or... I need to get off my rear-end and "borrow" Dirk's switching idea... and put the switch on the back... or internal...
So at this moment, all I can do in a blind comparison is the M2x with my known "favorite" buffer(s) alongside other amps.
As a side note - IMHO one of the M2x design objectives was met. At least one if not more buffer options using current parts that offers a listening experience equal to or better than the buffer using the Toshiba parts. Moreover, it's FUN!
or... I need to get off my rear-end and "borrow" Dirk's switching idea... and put the switch on the back... or internal...So at this moment, all I can do in a blind comparison is the M2x with my known "favorite" buffer(s) alongside other amps.
As a side note - IMHO one of the M2x design objectives was met. At least one if not more buffer options using current parts that offers a listening experience equal to or better than the buffer using the Toshiba parts. Moreover, it's FUN!
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I was thinking about the M2x as well. Amazing, the subtle differences between unity gain buffers of different design. I've even had fun swapping different types of JFets into the Mtn View. And I'm pretty sure my preferences don't always follow the one with the lowest measured distortion.
No, I don't worry about the whole double blind testing nonsense. That horse has been seriously beaten to death over many years. One does not listen to music in small snippets repeated in an attempt to discern minute differences. One listens to music to be entertained, and even lost in the flow of something transcendent of the mundane. I audition my M2x buffers over days, though often differences are apparent over the course of a single track.
No, I don't worry about the whole double blind testing nonsense. That horse has been seriously beaten to death over many years. One does not listen to music in small snippets repeated in an attempt to discern minute differences. One listens to music to be entertained, and even lost in the flow of something transcendent of the mundane. I audition my M2x buffers over days, though often differences are apparent over the course of a single track.
Definitely, what seems superior during A/B blind listening test may feel different after a week or so of unintentional listening to either. The A/B results are also biased, level of tiredness being the main culprit.
I stopped doing A/B and started giving each component a chance to impress (or not) over a long period of time. It takes more time but I think the end result is more pleasing on a longer run.
I stopped doing A/B and started giving each component a chance to impress (or not) over a long period of time. It takes more time but I think the end result is more pleasing on a longer run.
Not a major feature of the store's landscape that I've noticed personally.
While not a stated value or philosophy of the store that I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of thinking:
Deals, sales and other incentives ...
is relevant.
Could be wrong..
Not a major feature of the store's landscape that I've noticed personally.
While not a stated value or philosophy of the store that I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of thinking:
Deals, sales and other incentives ...
is relevant.
Could be wrong..
Completly agree with Shiit !
A minimal ethic makes offering the right price therefore deals have no place, they are just marketing rubbish.
DIY store gives the right prices + a free unparalleled help, again asking for this sort of things here is just a mentality problem.
The BK-20 is a horn for the FE206 (pre 2000 version, from before decent horn modelers), and is not the best cabinet for this driver. Do note that the FE206En is 96 dB, but as important is the kind of speaker that likes a bit higher output impedance amplifier (ie the impedance curve is synergistic with the amp output impedance and the FR (when measured with a low output impedance amplifier)).
I suspect that bridged ACA (output impedance is R*2), will be better than a singe (R) or a pair in parallel mono (R/2).
dave