My Transistors, original or copy?

transistor (dies )

Hay. Gentlemen:
Thank You for interest on the point Wafer, Actually if the transistor still in die form, it cannot be tested.

If test should be excised, first cut out the die from it's wafer, then bond on the tr. packing, then ultrasonic bond out the leads,
in production line, if necessary, they will do this, but this would cost time and money, usually they wouldn't go this way.

Usually the rejected wafer is rejected by visual, such as scratched,
photo etching not perfect, like cannot define out the patent, or broken wafer during handling. If a wafer more than 40% fail, then rejected.

Another fall out is when the transistor was packed from die, after bonding, casing, then go for test before marking. If the lot more than ???% of failure, ???depends on individual manufacturer, test include Beta, Vceo, Vces, Ic, Hie, Hoe--------- total 33 tests. then if the lot does not meet the yield rate, then the lot to be rejected without marking. Then the Fake people do their marking.

From the above points, Fake, copy, false---- transistor were selled on the market.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:

WE CONSIDER TO TELL THE TRUTH
 
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Hi sayang001,
From what I've heard, rejects are destroyed for that exact reason. Also the lot can be written off as a loss as long as there is reasonable proof it was destroyed. I wonder if they melt and recycle the silicon?

The chips can have some tests done by probing also, they do not need to be mounted for some basic tests.

-Chris
 
Re: transistor (dies )

mitwrong said:
Actually if the transistor still in die form, it cannot be tested.

Hi mitwrong,

This might be the practice for transistors, but with LSI (i.e microprocessors and related support peripherals), die is tested prior to wafer cut, with at least gross functionality test.

I'd like to state that regardless however, I'm very grateful the information you are providing!!

Cheers!
 
Transistor

Hay, Gents:

From the begining to now, I still taking about transistor, Not LSI or other products.
For the flake products, the original manufacturer they only sell out the scratched die or unmarked semi at the back door, After all, nothing to do with him.

Onsemi has his own wafer produced, no point he will do the fakes.

I mean the third party, somewhere underground, they bought the fall out product, then do their packaging and marked on the rejected stuff. Usually this happened in Asia somewhere, I know, but it's not convient to say in open area.

Sometimes, they also marked manufacturer like Moxxxxxx, Faxxxxx, Sxxxxxxx, Txxxxxxx-----, they marked the same as the orgs. about the die size, that is, U can think about a large manufacturer firm will not change the size of the die, if they want to change the die size, they will change the part number and become another product. Only the fake people they bought these mixed up stuff with a very low price and also doesn't want to change the marking system setup, therefore U guys buy the fake product without knowing what it is. Of cause, basic function like N or P type, Meter test passed. Also everybody know this is fraud manner, but money is bigger than anything. also nobody knows where they are, they just like an ordinally supplier provide the stuff to the market.

Anyway, I am not the one seen this case, believe or not, is your choice,
I am telling the truth. on this open area, I can't talk in details, if someone experienced this type of case, he will know I am telling the truth. this happened in one underdevelopment country.

Not only transistors, Vaccuum tube ( valve ), today they have good market price, they bought the one produced in an underdeveloped country and marked with Gxx, Muxxx, Texxxx brand names. (note xxxx is just represents the rest of that name with not exact number of alphabet. These Brands are no longer produce valves, but today, fresh from production with fresh marking. valve type like ELxx, 6Cxx---, they sell them on net.


:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:


WE CONSIDER USING ORG. PRODUCTS, FIGHT AGAINST FAKES
 
Hi Chris,

First. I thought I'd mention that I worked on the design side for a major semiconductor company, but had little to do with the fab side.

I'm currently doing robotics and machine vision work for a company who is also concerned with these component issues.

I thought I'd mention the idea for the case where there's a large lot of parts, of opening the can on a few samples of say metal can parts to inspect the die. I'm not certain that lot codes and date codes are on the die, can anyone confirm this?

I believe that manufacturer's keep date codes and lot codes on file so that fall outs can be identified if they somehow make it to the field.

Pete B.


anatech said:
This thread intended to be an information resource for all. Please post measured data and photos for complimentary pairs in one post. The data will be condensed so we have a single post for each type to make things easy to look up. It will be a sticky.

I would like to thank MikeB for encouraging the creation of this resource, and all the members who have collected and posted information previously. Also the members who post new data. We will condense new information into a pre-existing post for the type number. All O.T. posts will be removed to keep this thread clean and useful.

My hope is that this thread will assist members in their semiconductor purchases. Another thread on this can be found here.

-Chris
 
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Hi Pete,
Good idea for incoming inspection. The best defence is to only buy from a traceable supplier. If you do that the chances of getting caught with fakes are greatly reduced. That was the purpose of this thread. The parts I've posted come from a known supply chain. The On Semi parts were On Semi samples, directly from On Semi. This was the only way to guarantie the measurements and pictures. This is in hopes to allow our members from other countries with longer supply chains a chance at identifing fake parts.

The only thing I can say too is that if the price is too low, there is something wrong. Either stolen, rejected or outright copies of parts. Don't feed that market.

-Chris
 
Genuine or fake 2sk170

I'm concerned about my 2SK170's...

Idss testing(at 9 volt) for left transistors:
6,22 (mA)
6,26
6,92
9,95

And those on the right:
6,65
6,8
6,82
6,85
6,93
7
7,13
7,18
7,49
7,5
7,56
7,63
7,64
7,7
7,74
7,84
7,93
8,13
8,13
8,81
9,15
9,34
9,4
9,45
9,53
9,63
10,25
10,25
10,43
10,73

Can someone confirm on which ones are genuine?

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
anatech said:
Hi Pete,
Good idea for incoming inspection. The best defence is to only buy from a traceable supplier. If you do that the chances of getting caught with fakes are greatly reduced. That was the purpose of this thread. The parts I've posted come from a known supply chain. The On Semi parts were On Semi samples, directly from On Semi. This was the only way to guarantie the measurements and pictures. This is in hopes to allow our members from other countries with longer supply chains a chance at identifing fake parts.

The only thing I can say too is that if the price is too low, there is something wrong. Either stolen, rejected or outright copies of parts. Don't feed that market.

-Chris


This all makes sense Chris, I worked in defense electronics so I'm familiar with traceability. However, there is a secondary market for excess inventory and sometimes it's not possible to know the source. One can look for factory sealed boxes, and authorized dealer markings as a start.

I've got some Sanken 2SA1186 and 2SC2837s here and I want to crack a few open for a first look. Anyone have the technique down? Thinking vice, chisel, dremel tool?

Thanks,
Pete B.
 
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Paid Member
Hi Pete,
I'd be thinking vise. Controllable pressure without excessive penetration. :D So much for brute force and ignorance - as effective as it can be. Never mind expedient.

How many do you have there? Before playing silly bug-ger, we can measure capacitance and hFE. You could fire on or two of each up here if there is no one closer to you.

Then there is that satisfying "crack!" as the case opens to reveal the secrets within. Hard to beat that.

-Chris ;)
 
anatech said:
Hi Pete,
I'd be thinking vise. Controllable pressure without excessive penetration. :D So much for brute force and ignorance - as effective as it can be. Never mind expedient.

How many do you have there? Before playing silly bug-ger, we can measure capacitance and hFE. You could fire on or two of each up here if there is no one closer to you.

Then there is that satisfying "crack!" as the case opens to reveal the secrets within. Hard to beat that.

-Chris ;)


They're from a friend who's in the business of excess inventory.
I won't mention the name of the company, so that I don't get in
trouble with the other mods. I don't know if we're allowed to talk
about this friend. He has other types, and large quantities, this
particular lot is all Sanken. If the mods allow it I'll tell you
whatever you want. I am involved with machine based vision
there for quality control, but not for these particular parts. I do
consulting work there.

I'm not sure of the exact numbers I can check, over 1000 of
each though as a minimum. I was going to crack a few open and
see what's there. They look good so far based on Rod Elliot's
site: http://sound.westhost.com/fake/counterfeit-p2.htm#sank1
Thick lettering.
Centered Lot codes.
Many are in factory sealed boxes.

I would probably do an SOA test as the first electrical test,
but probably won't need to if we pop a few open.

These are graded for hfe, and these are the best Y grade, 90 min
to 180 hfe.
I don't expect there to be a lot of interest in these, and so I'm
just doing this out of curiosity.
These are impressive parts, is Sanken still making them?

Pete B.
 
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Joined 2004
Paid Member
Hi Pete,
They are compliments rated at 150V, 10A, 100W and a target hFE of 60 for the series. Yours are pretty high in that regard. fT is rated at 70 MHz. So they are very useable and may work well in a Symasym.

Does that agree with what you know?

-Chris
 
grey market rransistors

iirc the grey market for semiconductors has been active for a long time. back in 1982 i read an article about chinese companies buying reject lots of semiconductors from the real manufacturers (like hitachi, toshiba, sanken, sanyo, sony, etc...) and building knock-offs of consumer electronics (like "pionex" copies of pioneer equipment). that part of it is nothing new, but this practice of using multiple low performance dies to "simulate" a high performance transistor is something new. another potential source of knock-off semis is the distribution chain itself.... what does a distributor do if a certain date code or lot number of a particular component gets reported to have an unusually high failure rate, or out of spec lots? i would hope the distributor would return them to the manufacturer, but this may not always be the case. the part is already out there, and is for all intents and purposes, an original part, except it's from a bad lot or date code, and all the counterfeiter has to do is buy them cheap and resell them to other distributors that don't know it's a bad lot. when i get an OOB (out-of-box) failure on several of the same component with the same date code, i report it to the distributor, and mot reputable distributors will replace OOB failed components, and even sort replacements so you don't end up with a bunch of components from that same date code that you reported to them. usually distributors will report bad date codes back to the manufacturer, who will tell the distributor to return the entire remaining stock of that date code for credit. usually the manufacturer remelts the returned devices.

btw, wouldn't b-c capacitance (Ccb) be more directly related to die area than b-e capacitance (Cbe)?
 
anatech said:
Hi Pete,
They are compliments rated at 150V, 10A, 100W and a target hFE of 60 for the series. Yours are pretty high in that regard. fT is rated at 70 MHz. So they are very useable and may work well in a Symasym.

Does that agree with what you know?

-Chris


Hi Chris,
This is right from the Sanken data sheet:
2SC2837
NPN 150V 10A 100W 3P/TO3, hfe 50 min, ft 70 MHz, Cob 60pF
hFE rank O(50to100) P(70 to 140) Y(90 to 180)

Here's the data sheet in .pdf:
http://www.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/prod/semicon/pdf/2sc2837e.pdf

Here's an index of Sanken data sheets:
http://www.sanken-ele.co.jp/en/prod/semicon/ptr/ptr_u/ptr_01e.htm

They have good SOA characteristics so they'd be good for many designs up to probably 50 W. I'd probably use pairs for higher power designs.

Pete B.
 
Re: grey market rransistors

unclejed613 said:
iirc the grey market for semiconductors has been active for a long time. back in 1982 i read an article about chinese companies buying reject lots of semiconductors from the real manufacturers (like hitachi, toshiba, sanken, sanyo, sony, etc...) and building knock-offs of consumer electronics (like "pionex" copies of pioneer equipment). that part of it is nothing new, but this practice of using multiple low performance dies to "simulate" a high performance transistor is something new. another potential source of knock-off semis is the distribution chain itself.... what does a distributor do if a certain date code or lot number of a particular component gets reported to have an unusually high failure rate, or out of spec lots? i would hope the distributor would return them to the manufacturer, but this may not always be the case. the part is already out there, and is for all intents and purposes, an original part, except it's from a bad lot or date code, and all the counterfeiter has to do is buy them cheap and resell them to other distributors that don't know it's a bad lot. when i get an OOB (out-of-box) failure on several of the same component with the same date code, i report it to the distributor, and mot reputable distributors will replace OOB failed components, and even sort replacements so you don't end up with a bunch of components from that same date code that you reported to them. usually distributors will report bad date codes back to the manufacturer, who will tell the distributor to return the entire remaining stock of that date code for credit. usually the manufacturer remelts the returned devices.

btw, wouldn't b-c capacitance (Ccb) be more directly related to die area than b-e capacitance (Cbe)?


We prefer to call it secondary market rather than grey market. No major manufacturer is going to sell off defective die, because it will only hurt their name and image in the industry. They usually mark these to be destroyed, and I believe that sometimes, unfortunately, they slip out the door.
This is a huge problem in industry, all sorts of bad lots show up at major manufacturers.

Pete B.