konnichiwa,
What happens depends on a lot of factors. Generallyusing a transformer with large parts of the secondary unconnected leads to (undamping existing) resonances. Hopefully a TVC is wound such that the structure is damped with a partially disconnected secondary. This may mitigate any unconected primary issues or excebarate them, depending on actual construction.
Certainly the MKIII has a very unusual structure (as I understand those things) and I think leaving the primary open might create all sorts of funny busines. Always hard to be certain without extensive measurements though....
Ciao T
mikelm said:
What happens depends on a lot of factors. Generallyusing a transformer with large parts of the secondary unconnected leads to (undamping existing) resonances. Hopefully a TVC is wound such that the structure is damped with a partially disconnected secondary. This may mitigate any unconected primary issues or excebarate them, depending on actual construction.
Certainly the MKIII has a very unusual structure (as I understand those things) and I think leaving the primary open might create all sorts of funny busines. Always hard to be certain without extensive measurements though....
Ciao T
Well, I tried all three connection methods last night and I prefer the one with the S and P in parallel.
In my system, with the S&B 102 mk2, having the i/p to the S and having the P disconnected one end sounds quite lively and dramatic but with some added roughness.
Having normal TVC connection sounds a bit too smooth
P and S parallel gives a bit more sparkle but still smooth and refined.
It's funny how things develop, I'm just listening to 'A Fair Summer Evening' by Nancy Griffith. It's a live album and I always thought it was a bad recording that I had to 'listen through' to hear the music. Even in a Hi Fi shop I have been told that this CD might not show the equipment at it's best.
In my system now I can finally hear that, in fact, it's a very fine recording. I think it's all about how the low level information is dealt with.
Thanks for the advice Thorsten another step towards getting everything sorted !
mike
In my system, with the S&B 102 mk2, having the i/p to the S and having the P disconnected one end sounds quite lively and dramatic but with some added roughness.
Having normal TVC connection sounds a bit too smooth
P and S parallel gives a bit more sparkle but still smooth and refined.
It's funny how things develop, I'm just listening to 'A Fair Summer Evening' by Nancy Griffith. It's a live album and I always thought it was a bad recording that I had to 'listen through' to hear the music. Even in a Hi Fi shop I have been told that this CD might not show the equipment at it's best.
In my system now I can finally hear that, in fact, it's a very fine recording. I think it's all about how the low level information is dealt with.
Thanks for the advice Thorsten another step towards getting everything sorted !
mike
TVC / AVC
Hi All,
I wanted an earthed mute position on my TVC, so I don't have the 0dB secondary soldered to my rotary switch.
Looking at Christian's schematic, it appears I merely have to connect the floating 0dB secondary to the input hot. Before I jump in, can I just confirm with you guys that I am on the right track?
Many thanks
Jon
Hi All,
I wanted an earthed mute position on my TVC, so I don't have the 0dB secondary soldered to my rotary switch.
Looking at Christian's schematic, it appears I merely have to connect the floating 0dB secondary to the input hot. Before I jump in, can I just confirm with you guys that I am on the right track?
Many thanks
Jon
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your quick response.
My secondary "-" is earthed to the chassis so should be the same as Christian's schematic. However, do you mean that my power amps should be earthed back to the 102? Sorry if I appear dull, but I can't quite get my head around this.... I'd better get a pen and sketch the comments here onto the 102 diagram. Once I understand it, it'll all appear so obvious, I'm sure.......
What has really got me reaching for my screwdriver is whether I left "+" floating or whether I connected "+" and "--" together as per the notes on S&Bs 102 webpage.
I can't remember, but I have a feeling they were insulated and put to one side....
Still, keeps me out of the pub!!
Cheers!
Jon
Thanks for your quick response.
My secondary "-" is earthed to the chassis so should be the same as Christian's schematic. However, do you mean that my power amps should be earthed back to the 102? Sorry if I appear dull, but I can't quite get my head around this.... I'd better get a pen and sketch the comments here onto the 102 diagram. Once I understand it, it'll all appear so obvious, I'm sure.......
What has really got me reaching for my screwdriver is whether I left "+" floating or whether I connected "+" and "--" together as per the notes on S&Bs 102 webpage.
I can't remember, but I have a feeling they were insulated and put to one side.... Still, keeps me out of the pub!!
Cheers!
Jon
jonclancy said:My secondary "-" is earthed to the chassis so should be the same as Christian's schematic. However, do you mean that my power amps should be earthed back to the 102? Sorry if I appear dull, but I can't quite get my head around this.... I'd better get a pen and sketch the comments here onto the 102 diagram. Once I understand it, it'll all appear so obvious, I'm sure.......
What has really got me reaching for my screwdriver is whether I left "+" floating or whether I connected "+" and "--" together as per the notes on S&Bs 102 webpage.
Jon
One things is clear - you have been listening to this thing so basically it's wired OK.
What I have to do in these circumstances is inspect the current set-up, draw a diagram of how it is now and then draw in the mods and then get soldering.
I hope you guys with the Mk3 notice some benifit from this mod.
If you still have doubts, post your system diagram.
good luck
mike
Result!
Hi All,
I have connected + and -- together. There appeared to be an improvement in the "body" of the sound - difficult to say exactly how much as we were
at the time, the Ladies were holding a conversation and I have developed an ear infection that has given me tinnitus!
However, when I had a chance to listen yesterday, I was very pleased with the extra depth and punch - really quite noticeable.
Another interesting point: I had missed out one of my earthed mute wires but could faintly hear music on that channel even when there was no connection from that switch position to output hot. Suffice to say it is perfectly silient now I have bothered to install all the parts!
I also took the opportunity to connect the 0dB secondaries to input hot. There didn't appear to be any immediately noticeable change in tone when I was touching the two together, but I will give it a good listening to and see if there is any extra sparkle. I will get hold of a SPST switch for ease of comparison.
Many thanks for your advice, Mike.
Cheers
Jon
Hi All,
I have connected + and -- together. There appeared to be an improvement in the "body" of the sound - difficult to say exactly how much as we were
at the time, the Ladies were holding a conversation and I have developed an ear infection that has given me tinnitus! However, when I had a chance to listen yesterday, I was very pleased with the extra depth and punch - really quite noticeable.
Another interesting point: I had missed out one of my earthed mute wires but could faintly hear music on that channel even when there was no connection from that switch position to output hot. Suffice to say it is perfectly silient now I have bothered to install all the parts!
I also took the opportunity to connect the 0dB secondaries to input hot. There didn't appear to be any immediately noticeable change in tone when I was touching the two together, but I will give it a good listening to and see if there is any extra sparkle. I will get hold of a SPST switch for ease of comparison.
Many thanks for your advice, Mike.
Cheers
Jon
There are some advantages of being very late at starting my TVC !
It looks as though you have found ways of improving the original wiring however I has somewhat lost track of who is using what schematic.
Is there now a consensus as to the best way of wiring? I have read most of the comments I just cant work out who is using what! Is there a schematics that explains it all.
It looks as though you have found ways of improving the original wiring however I has somewhat lost track of who is using what schematic.
Is there now a consensus as to the best way of wiring? I have read most of the comments I just cant work out who is using what! Is there a schematics that explains it all.
Wiring....
Your results may vary, but this is what I am using.
Primary side.
RCA Input Hot to ++
RCA Input Cold to -
No plus 6 db operation, therefore + and -- soldered together and insulated.
Secondary side.
0dB secondary connected to RCA Input Hot (AVC Mode - can't work out if that is Series or Parallel ). Will install a switch here when I get one.
23 position switch. Starts with -2dB and goes all the way to the final low volume position which I have run to earth, thus having a "mute". I found that the TVC on the lowest volume setting was still loud enough for evening listening - mute useful for when the phone rings!!
Earth post on the Secondary side. Run another (earth) line from Input RCA Cold to switch (hard / soft ground) and then on to earth post via the Output RCA Cold.
Red Screen also connected to RCA Output Cold (therefore earth, too). I used red hookup wire from Seiden "out" lug to Output RCA Hot.
Input wires ++ and - twisted together, outputs not. I am not sure if this makes any difference. I also didn't trim the secondaries, but intend to in my fledgling design.
PM me and I'll send you a pic by return - My computer doesn't seem to want to resize it for posting here without crashing!
Cheers
Jon
Your results may vary, but this is what I am using.
Primary side.
RCA Input Hot to ++
RCA Input Cold to -
No plus 6 db operation, therefore + and -- soldered together and insulated.
Secondary side.
0dB secondary connected to RCA Input Hot (AVC Mode - can't work out if that is Series or Parallel
). Will install a switch here when I get one.23 position switch. Starts with -2dB and goes all the way to the final low volume position which I have run to earth, thus having a "mute". I found that the TVC on the lowest volume setting was still loud enough for evening listening - mute useful for when the phone rings!!
Earth post on the Secondary side. Run another (earth) line from Input RCA Cold to switch (hard / soft ground) and then on to earth post via the Output RCA Cold.
Red Screen also connected to RCA Output Cold (therefore earth, too). I used red hookup wire from Seiden "out" lug to Output RCA Hot.
Input wires ++ and - twisted together, outputs not. I am not sure if this makes any difference. I also didn't trim the secondaries, but intend to in my fledgling design.
PM me and I'll send you a pic by return - My computer doesn't seem to want to resize it for posting here without crashing!
Cheers
Jon
My experience so far with balanced outs:
I built a TVC with OCC copper TX12 MKIII's and one input/one output (both unbalanced), Shallco switch, unity gain configuration, in aluminium box with 2 inches thick wood base (I love wood).
With my humble digital source (NAD C542 transport-Monarchy DIP upsampler-M-audio superDAC) I can use it with both in/outs grpunds floating without problem. The sound is addictive: clean, detailed, sweet, extended and with excellent bass...or at least I thought it until I upgraded to XLR outputs!
My Monarchy SE100delux accept balanced inputs but are not trully balanced. Also my Hypex' UcD amps are trully balanced(at least the input receiver is) so I decided to go for it= (+) to pin 2; screen (or at least I think it's screen) to pin 1; base (unmarked wire) to pin 3.
OH MY! feeding the "false balanced" Monarchy amps stunned me:
first, instead of the usual -20dB position I now use less than -40dB (I doubt the input stage having different sensitivities); I get better instruments definition and separation; better, stronger bass wich leads to better stage depth, sweeter, rounder mids and highs. The feeling of "pro sound"?
BUT! Hélas... I have annoying buzzz around 1k (by ear). Yesterday I tried every grounding option without success. Today I will try soft grounding the inputs (as Mr Kuey Yang Wang suggested) and also grounding trough the amp's ground (I hope nothing explodes) and trying my UcD amp.
Could it be RF? Could the unused lead (-) be catching noise?
I am trully proud of this, my first DIY project. It sounds better and better, but I have to get rid of the buzz (that anyway is not so disturbing from my listening position, but it's there).
I hope someone have ideas to help.
Mr Kuey Yang Wang, are you there???
Many thanks
Mauricio
I built a TVC with OCC copper TX12 MKIII's and one input/one output (both unbalanced), Shallco switch, unity gain configuration, in aluminium box with 2 inches thick wood base (I love wood).
With my humble digital source (NAD C542 transport-Monarchy DIP upsampler-M-audio superDAC) I can use it with both in/outs grpunds floating without problem. The sound is addictive: clean, detailed, sweet, extended and with excellent bass...or at least I thought it until I upgraded to XLR outputs!
My Monarchy SE100delux accept balanced inputs but are not trully balanced. Also my Hypex' UcD amps are trully balanced(at least the input receiver is) so I decided to go for it= (+) to pin 2; screen (or at least I think it's screen) to pin 1; base (unmarked wire) to pin 3.
OH MY! feeding the "false balanced" Monarchy amps stunned me:
first, instead of the usual -20dB position I now use less than -40dB (I doubt the input stage having different sensitivities); I get better instruments definition and separation; better, stronger bass wich leads to better stage depth, sweeter, rounder mids and highs. The feeling of "pro sound"?
BUT! Hélas... I have annoying buzzz around 1k (by ear). Yesterday I tried every grounding option without success. Today I will try soft grounding the inputs (as Mr Kuey Yang Wang suggested) and also grounding trough the amp's ground (I hope nothing explodes) and trying my UcD amp.
Could it be RF? Could the unused lead (-) be catching noise?
I am trully proud of this, my first DIY project. It sounds better and better, but I have to get rid of the buzz (that anyway is not so disturbing from my listening position, but it's there).
I hope someone have ideas to help.
Mr Kuey Yang Wang, are you there???
Many thanks
Mauricio
Jon, thanks for those links, I spent several hours last night on the Bent site, lots of good stuff there.
Max, sounds like you have done something very similar to me, I am using Hypex UCD180 with an old NAD pre with balanced connections. I want to replace the Nad with the TX102 amp and balanced connection throughout. Do you have any photos of your TVC ? I would love to see it.
Max, sounds like you have done something very similar to me, I am using Hypex UCD180 with an old NAD pre with balanced connections. I want to replace the Nad with the TX102 amp and balanced connection throughout. Do you have any photos of your TVC ? I would love to see it.
wytccO
I'll be too ashamed to show my "Flintstone pre".
Nothing special inside.
I will have to get a digital camera.
(I'm getting the parts to build a pair of UcD400 monoblocks )This DIY disease is worse than Audiophilia nervosa. At first I thought that it will be the cure of it but now I realize that one only change a neurosis for another one
Tonight I will try the balanced outs with my UcD amp.
I'll be too ashamed to show my "Flintstone pre".
Nothing special inside.
I will have to get a digital camera.
(I'm getting the parts to build a pair of UcD400 monoblocks
)This DIY disease is worse than Audiophilia nervosa. At first I thought that it will be the cure of it but now I realize that one only change a neurosis for another one Tonight I will try the balanced outs with my UcD amp.
I've just tried my 102 mkII as an AVC. I compared TVC/AVC via an extra switch, leaving the original switched option for hard/soft ground set to hard.
I tried this active and passive. For active I used a Rozenblit Ground Grid with the 102 replacing the pot.
Passive and active results were simlar in how the TVC/AVC compared.
I would say that with the AVC the bass was firmer with more punch. Treble decays were are improved, there was a fraction more sparkle. With the 12 db gain from the GG there was more authority underpinning the sound. I found this sound had most drive but it's not a night & day difference. If I'd had continually resolder connections to convert between TVC and AVC I doubt I'd have noticed much difference, the ease and speed of flicking a switch made comparisons easy.
The real test comes over time, if the sound is "slow" I will probably listen more to atmospheric music, if it has drive I will put more rock into the diet. This is the ultimate test rather than the above A/B tests.
To sum up; a small improvement from the AVC over TVC but it's of a similar magnitude to what you get from swapping two similar cables.
I tried this active and passive. For active I used a Rozenblit Ground Grid with the 102 replacing the pot.
Passive and active results were simlar in how the TVC/AVC compared.
I would say that with the AVC the bass was firmer with more punch. Treble decays were are improved, there was a fraction more sparkle. With the 12 db gain from the GG there was more authority underpinning the sound. I found this sound had most drive but it's not a night & day difference. If I'd had continually resolder connections to convert between TVC and AVC I doubt I'd have noticed much difference, the ease and speed of flicking a switch made comparisons easy.
The real test comes over time, if the sound is "slow" I will probably listen more to atmospheric music, if it has drive I will put more rock into the diet. This is the ultimate test rather than the above A/B tests.
To sum up; a small improvement from the AVC over TVC but it's of a similar magnitude to what you get from swapping two similar cables.