Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Parts Where to get, and how to make the best bits. PCB's, caps, transformers, etc.

Fake Jantzen caps from HiFi Collective?
Fake Jantzen caps from HiFi Collective?
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd January 2019, 08:50 AM   #1
KlipschKid is offline KlipschKid
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Exclamation Fake Jantzen caps from HiFi Collective?

Hi,

Wondering if anyone has had a problem with caps from HiFi Collective? I've made a few orders with them and this time around I got sent two very and obviously different Jantzen Superior Z caps. One of them looks fake and when I tap the shell, it vibrates and feels like something is loose inside.

I've bought Jantzen Superior Z before and from Hi-Fi Collective, and one cap in the order matches the previous caps I've bought. The cap that matches previous orders weighs 83g, with a body 35mm in diameter and 64mm long. The fake looking one weighs 43g and is significantly smaller - 30mm in diameter and 57mm long. Finally, the fake looking cap has an obviously different construction with an exposed metal shell at the ends, that non-solid feel when tapped, and a slightly different shade of skin colour.

Anyone else had this experience or anything like it? Can anyone confirm if there is smaller lighter somewhat hollow version of the Jantzen Superior Z ?

EDIT

Jantzen have confirmed there is a smaller lighter and somewhat hollow version of the Superior Z with no performance difference to the older version. See post 19.

Hi-Fi Collective responded very quickly, and promptly shipped out two matching caps of the newer version so I can return the others and test a matching pair. It's no exaggeration to say it's hard to beat such service.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P_20190122_165115.jpg (532.3 KB, 427 views)

Last edited by KlipschKid; 24th January 2019 at 12:06 PM.
 
Old 22nd January 2019, 09:41 AM   #2
supernet is offline supernet  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
supernet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Europe
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschKid View Post
Hi,

Wondering if anyone has had a problem with caps from HiFi Collective? I've made a few orders with them and this time around I got sent two very and obviously different Jantzen Superior Z caps. One of them looks fake and when I tap the shell, it vibrates and feels like something is loose inside.

I've bought Jantzen Superior Z before and from Hi-Fi Collective, and one cap in the order matches the previous caps I've bought. The cap that matches previous orders weighs 83g, with a body 35mm in diameter and 64mm long. The fake looking one weighs 43g and is significantly smaller - 30mm in diameter and 57mm long. Finally, the fake looking cap has an obviously different construction with an exposed metal shell at the ends, that non-solid feel when tapped, and a slightly different shade of skin colour.

Anyone else had this experience or anything like it? Can anyone confirm if there is smaller lighter somewhat hollow version of the Jantzen Superior Z ?

Why not sending email directly to Jantzen? They will know for sure
 
Old 22nd January 2019, 09:52 AM   #3
KlipschKid is offline KlipschKid
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Yes, good idea, and rather obvious too :-) Also asked HiFi Collective.

A bit of maths also suggests they can't be the same - density of the semi-hollow cap is about 25% less.
 
Old 22nd January 2019, 11:50 AM   #4
wolf_teeth is offline wolf_teeth  United States
diyAudio Member
 
wolf_teeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Indiana
Might not be as different as you think. Jantzen Superior, Silver, and Silver/Gold are housed in an aluminum tube currently. When they first came out they were not as such, or the epoxy ends were filled atop the end-ring and the tube was not seen. I have seen them both ways. The first Silver 6.8uF I got in 2008 did not have the exposed ring, but the ones I got in 2010 did.

Also of note- Superiors changed color somewhere back around 2010 from black wrap to red wrap, but the Sup' have always had solid untinned copper leads.

As far as weight, they have always been heavy, but if something rattles internally I would be skeptical of a fake part. I've never had any Jantzen caps do that, and I've used a lot of them.

Later,
Wolf
__________________
Photobucket picture pages: http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more
Writeups/thoughts/blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102
 
Old 22nd January 2019, 02:00 PM   #5
KlipschKid is offline KlipschKid
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Thanks. It might just be different generations but I don't like the quality of the lighter (newer?) one for sure. Tapping the metal shell causes a pinging reverberation (not a rattle clunck) like a semi-hollow shell with a low density loose filling and something suspended within in that. Like a part that's not well fitted in its supporting shell so it vibrates, and because it vibrates, what's its resonant frequency? For an audio part inside a speaker under high pressure, this would seem to be like deliberately creating a high amplitude piezo effect, or worse. It feels crap tbh. If Jantzen confirm this is how it's supposed to be, I won't be buying them again. And if not, I won't be buying them again either.

Jantzen haven't replied. HiFi Collective have and say 100% it is genuine but since they haven't sent a pair of the same, they'll send a pair of the lighter smaller (crappy) ones and I'll return these. I guess it's partly my fault for not knowing Jantzen had downgraded the quality of manufacturing. I just assumed I'd get the same as the last order.
 
Old 22nd January 2019, 03:03 PM   #6
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
diyAudio Member
 
JMFahey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschKid View Post
it's partly my fault for not knowing Jantzen had downgraded the quality of manufacturing.
You are jumping to unwarranted conclusions, so far Jantzen has not answered.
That cap might not have been made by them at all.

Or they may have changed production technology, which does not mean they are "inferior".

Id wait for their answer before posting derogatory comments.
__________________
Design/make/service musical stuff in Buenos Aires, Argentina, since 1969.
 
Old 22nd January 2019, 08:19 PM   #7
wolf_teeth is offline wolf_teeth  United States
diyAudio Member
 
wolf_teeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Indiana
Jantzen is not the only company making caps in an aluminum tube. Audyn Plus and Obliggato Premium, for example, are also made this way. It does not make them automatically inferior as wagered. I would withhold judgment as JM stated because the egg would be on your face if not as inferred.

Later,
Wolf
__________________
Photobucket picture pages: http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more
Writeups/thoughts/blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102
 
Old 23rd January 2019, 01:54 AM   #8
KlipschKid is offline KlipschKid
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Hi,

I'm not jumping to conclusions - I have both types side by side and the construction of one is far less solid than the other. One reverberates when tapped, the other does not. Although I have a degree in materials science, you really only need a finger and an ear to know this. Given Jantzen wax coils are advertised as being damped by the wax and thus superior to the cross coil, jantzen's own marketing somewhat supports the need for a more solid construction for crossover components. If you trust marketing, which in this case makes sense so why not.
 
Old 23rd January 2019, 04:12 AM   #9
KlipschKid is offline KlipschKid
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
I got a reply from Jantzen - they confirm the aluminium shell is now standard for aesthetic reasons, (actually, I think they are trying to save costs by substantially reducing the use of heavy resin).

They say there is a limited range of shell sizes (so caps don't always fill the shell they are within) - this explains the semi-hollow issue I have - I guess they are not using enough resin to make the cap solid within the shell. However, the old caps must have had a huge amount of resin - it's over double the volume of just the shell of the new one, never mind the foil cap within.

They also say the same amount of foil is used in both newer and older versions so there is no performance difference - I assume this to be electrically, because of course, mechanically, it would be farcical to claim they are the same when they have already stated they are not. It has clearly been downgraded mechanically. Aluminium is cheap and might be stiff enough for a shell depending on which series it is and thickness, but I'd prefer something with a higher hardness rating and lower thermal expansion.

I also noticed another issue with the new version - one resin end can rotate a little within the shell (not an adequately round shell.... aluminium ....). The other end does not at all. This not only suggests that resin is not used to fill the shell but is only used at both ends, it also shows a minor quality control issue.

I'm going to test this new one in a speaker anyway. If I can't hear a difference between old and new versions it hardly matters that much. It'll just nag on my mind they are not the same. BTW, the caps in question are 3.9uF ones, 800V Superior Z.

Finally, worth pointing out that a common way to fake caps is to stick a fancy shell around a different cap. Re-skinning is very common too.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fake cap.jpg (53.3 KB, 249 views)

Last edited by KlipschKid; 23rd January 2019 at 04:42 AM.
 
Old 23rd January 2019, 09:01 AM   #10
analog_sa is offline analog_sa  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
analog_sa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cascais
Fake Jantzen caps from HiFi Collective?
KlipschKid, many thanks for starting this thread and especially for choosing to perform listening tests instead of returning the caps.

I feel a similar weight reduction was done by ClarityCap when "upgrading" the MR series to CMR, but in that case both appearance and designation were changed. And yes, the price was also jacked up
 

Closed Thread


Fake Jantzen caps from HiFi Collective?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Jantzen Alumen Z Caps jmproductions Swap Meet 12 29th July 2018 08:36 PM
WTB: 2 or 4 Jantzen Superior Z Caps josoeff Swap Meet 0 27th July 2018 05:32 PM
FS: Jantzen Superior Z- Caps 22 uF. Leeuwarden Swap Meet 12 20th March 2015 03:08 PM
FS: Jantzen Standard Z caps budwiser Swap Meet 6 23rd April 2013 04:12 PM
Auricap and Jantzen Crossover Caps! cowanrg Swap Meet 3 7th July 2009 09:08 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:43 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki