Hi,
Wondering if anyone has had a problem with caps from HiFi Collective? I've made a few orders with them and this time around I got sent two very and obviously different Jantzen Superior Z caps. One of them looks fake and when I tap the shell, it vibrates and feels like something is loose inside.
I've bought Jantzen Superior Z before and from Hi-Fi Collective, and one cap in the order matches the previous caps I've bought. The cap that matches previous orders weighs 83g, with a body 35mm in diameter and 64mm long. The fake looking one weighs 43g and is significantly smaller - 30mm in diameter and 57mm long. Finally, the fake looking cap has an obviously different construction with an exposed metal shell at the ends, that non-solid feel when tapped, and a slightly different shade of skin colour.
Anyone else had this experience or anything like it? Can anyone confirm if there is smaller lighter somewhat hollow version of the Jantzen Superior Z ?
EDIT
Jantzen have confirmed there is a smaller lighter and somewhat hollow version of the Superior Z with no performance difference to the older version. See post 19.
Hi-Fi Collective responded very quickly, and promptly shipped out two matching caps of the newer version so I can return the others and test a matching pair. It's no exaggeration to say it's hard to beat such service.
Wondering if anyone has had a problem with caps from HiFi Collective? I've made a few orders with them and this time around I got sent two very and obviously different Jantzen Superior Z caps. One of them looks fake and when I tap the shell, it vibrates and feels like something is loose inside.
I've bought Jantzen Superior Z before and from Hi-Fi Collective, and one cap in the order matches the previous caps I've bought. The cap that matches previous orders weighs 83g, with a body 35mm in diameter and 64mm long. The fake looking one weighs 43g and is significantly smaller - 30mm in diameter and 57mm long. Finally, the fake looking cap has an obviously different construction with an exposed metal shell at the ends, that non-solid feel when tapped, and a slightly different shade of skin colour.
Anyone else had this experience or anything like it? Can anyone confirm if there is smaller lighter somewhat hollow version of the Jantzen Superior Z ?
EDIT
Jantzen have confirmed there is a smaller lighter and somewhat hollow version of the Superior Z with no performance difference to the older version. See post 19.
Hi-Fi Collective responded very quickly, and promptly shipped out two matching caps of the newer version so I can return the others and test a matching pair. It's no exaggeration to say it's hard to beat such service.
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Might not be as different as you think. Jantzen Superior, Silver, and Silver/Gold are housed in an aluminum tube currently. When they first came out they were not as such, or the epoxy ends were filled atop the end-ring and the tube was not seen. I have seen them both ways. The first Silver 6.8uF I got in 2008 did not have the exposed ring, but the ones I got in 2010 did.
Also of note- Superiors changed color somewhere back around 2010 from black wrap to red wrap, but the Sup' have always had solid untinned copper leads.
As far as weight, they have always been heavy, but if something rattles internally I would be skeptical of a fake part. I've never had any Jantzen caps do that, and I've used a lot of them.
Later,
Wolf
Also of note- Superiors changed color somewhere back around 2010 from black wrap to red wrap, but the Sup' have always had solid untinned copper leads.
As far as weight, they have always been heavy, but if something rattles internally I would be skeptical of a fake part. I've never had any Jantzen caps do that, and I've used a lot of them.
Later,
Wolf
Thanks. It might just be different generations but I don't like the quality of the lighter (newer?) one for sure. Tapping the metal shell causes a pinging reverberation (not a rattle clunck) like a semi-hollow shell with a low density loose filling and something suspended within in that. Like a part that's not well fitted in its supporting shell so it vibrates, and because it vibrates, what's its resonant frequency? For an audio part inside a speaker under high pressure, this would seem to be like deliberately creating a high amplitude piezo effect, or worse. It feels crap tbh. If Jantzen confirm this is how it's supposed to be, I won't be buying them again. And if not, I won't be buying them again either.
Jantzen haven't replied. HiFi Collective have and say 100% it is genuine but since they haven't sent a pair of the same, they'll send a pair of the lighter smaller (crappy) ones and I'll return these. I guess it's partly my fault for not knowing Jantzen had downgraded the quality of manufacturing. I just assumed I'd get the same as the last order.
Jantzen haven't replied. HiFi Collective have and say 100% it is genuine but since they haven't sent a pair of the same, they'll send a pair of the lighter smaller (crappy) ones and I'll return these. I guess it's partly my fault for not knowing Jantzen had downgraded the quality of manufacturing. I just assumed I'd get the same as the last order.
You are jumping to unwarranted conclusions, so far Jantzen has not answered.
That cap might not have been made by them at all.
Or they may have changed production technology, which does not mean they are "inferior".
I´d wait for their answer before posting derogatory comments.
Jantzen is not the only company making caps in an aluminum tube. Audyn Plus and Obliggato Premium, for example, are also made this way. It does not make them automatically inferior as wagered. I would withhold judgment as JM stated because the egg would be on your face if not as inferred.
Later,
Wolf
Later,
Wolf
Hi,
I'm not jumping to conclusions - I have both types side by side and the construction of one is far less solid than the other. One reverberates when tapped, the other does not. Although I have a degree in materials science, you really only need a finger and an ear to know this. Given Jantzen wax coils are advertised as being damped by the wax and thus superior to the cross coil, jantzen's own marketing somewhat supports the need for a more solid construction for crossover components. If you trust marketing, which in this case makes sense so why not.
I'm not jumping to conclusions - I have both types side by side and the construction of one is far less solid than the other. One reverberates when tapped, the other does not. Although I have a degree in materials science, you really only need a finger and an ear to know this. Given Jantzen wax coils are advertised as being damped by the wax and thus superior to the cross coil, jantzen's own marketing somewhat supports the need for a more solid construction for crossover components. If you trust marketing, which in this case makes sense so why not.
I got a reply from Jantzen - they confirm the aluminium shell is now standard for aesthetic reasons, (actually, I think they are trying to save costs by substantially reducing the use of heavy resin).
They say there is a limited range of shell sizes (so caps don't always fill the shell they are within) - this explains the semi-hollow issue I have - I guess they are not using enough resin to make the cap solid within the shell. However, the old caps must have had a huge amount of resin - it's over double the volume of just the shell of the new one, never mind the foil cap within.
They also say the same amount of foil is used in both newer and older versions so there is no performance difference - I assume this to be electrically, because of course, mechanically, it would be farcical to claim they are the same when they have already stated they are not. It has clearly been downgraded mechanically. Aluminium is cheap and might be stiff enough for a shell depending on which series it is and thickness, but I'd prefer something with a higher hardness rating and lower thermal expansion.
I also noticed another issue with the new version - one resin end can rotate a little within the shell (not an adequately round shell.... aluminium ....). The other end does not at all. This not only suggests that resin is not used to fill the shell but is only used at both ends, it also shows a minor quality control issue.
I'm going to test this new one in a speaker anyway. If I can't hear a difference between old and new versions it hardly matters that much. It'll just nag on my mind they are not the same. BTW, the caps in question are 3.9uF ones, 800V Superior Z.
Finally, worth pointing out that a common way to fake caps is to stick a fancy shell around a different cap. Re-skinning is very common too.
They say there is a limited range of shell sizes (so caps don't always fill the shell they are within) - this explains the semi-hollow issue I have - I guess they are not using enough resin to make the cap solid within the shell. However, the old caps must have had a huge amount of resin - it's over double the volume of just the shell of the new one, never mind the foil cap within.
They also say the same amount of foil is used in both newer and older versions so there is no performance difference - I assume this to be electrically, because of course, mechanically, it would be farcical to claim they are the same when they have already stated they are not. It has clearly been downgraded mechanically. Aluminium is cheap and might be stiff enough for a shell depending on which series it is and thickness, but I'd prefer something with a higher hardness rating and lower thermal expansion.
I also noticed another issue with the new version - one resin end can rotate a little within the shell (not an adequately round shell.... aluminium ....). The other end does not at all. This not only suggests that resin is not used to fill the shell but is only used at both ends, it also shows a minor quality control issue.
I'm going to test this new one in a speaker anyway. If I can't hear a difference between old and new versions it hardly matters that much. It'll just nag on my mind they are not the same. BTW, the caps in question are 3.9uF ones, 800V Superior Z.
Finally, worth pointing out that a common way to fake caps is to stick a fancy shell around a different cap. Re-skinning is very common too.
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KlipschKid, many thanks for starting this thread and especially for choosing to perform listening tests instead of returning the caps.
I feel a similar weight reduction was done by ClarityCap when "upgrading" the MR series to CMR, but in that case both appearance and designation were changed. And yes, the price was also jacked up
I feel a similar weight reduction was done by ClarityCap when "upgrading" the MR series to CMR, but in that case both appearance and designation were changed. And yes, the price was also jacked up
KlipschKid, many thanks for starting this thread and especially for choosing to perform listening tests instead of returning the caps.
I feel a similar weight reduction was done by ClarityCap when "upgrading" the MR series to CMR, but in that case both appearance and designation were changed. And yes, the price was also jacked up
Frustrating and disappointing eh?
The speakers I will test with are Kef Q100. I have three of these drivers - one in a centre channel and the standard Q100 left/right pair. The centre already has Jantzen SupZ, cross coil, and Mills resistor and is broken in already, so I can compare this to a standard Q100, and another Q100 with the new parts - another cross coil, Mills and the new version of the SupZ. It'll take several days to break in the new parts I guess so maybe do some critical listening in the weekend after next if there's time.
Also, since the major difference is the reduced resin and hollow shell, I see no reason why this can't be mitigated by adding a thick layer of resin or putty or similar to prevent the shell reverb. Or remove resin from one end of the hollow shell and fill the inside completely.
It's a semi-hollow tube sound - imagine tapping a solid piece of steel on a lathe or workbench and hearing almost nothing except your fingernail, then tapping an amplifier case and hearing the much louder echo/vibration of the case, not your fingernail- it's that kind of difference between the two caps. It's not subtle. And Jantzen confirmed this is the design too. The leads on both do vibrate on a tap but the sound from the leads is very quiet - for the older version, this is really the only noise a tap produces. For the newer version, the hollow sound dominates so I can't tell easily what noise the leads are making. Plus I can feel the difference so it's not just auditory. The newer version has a totally different feel when tapped. It's so different that my first impression was the newer version must be a poor attempt at a fake. And then I wondered how this could have slipped through unless the supply chain has been corrupted.
It's kinda ironic too cause my wife and I were complaining about how unreliable some online shopping can be, and I said that's why I bought this kind of thing from the UK. Then when the caps arrived, I showed her and demonstrated the pinging reverb. We were both had this "oh no, not the UK too now" feeling. But in the end, it seems to be cost cutting gone a bit too far. I've hinted at this to Jantzen in my reply so perhaps they'll remedy this...
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I would not advise opening them up. Capacitors are supposed to be hermetically sealed to keep out moisture and avoid failure due to oxidation. This can be handled in a factory specialized for doing so, but likely not in a home environment. I've used a bunch of these, and I just strap them down tightly to the boards I'm using.
Wolf
Haha... thankfully, I don't need to. Mundorf already make them the way I like ;-) I bought Jantzen as the budget parts for budget speakers. But the quality has dropped since I last bought them it was so it was a bad choice. I'm sure you know all about bad choices Mr Cranky. Tell us a few of yours. ;-)
Good point, although the one I have isn't sealed - the resin at one end can rotate.
I just got another email from them so I've asked about the seal process. They asked me to share this info :
"When we decided to add anodized aluminum tubes it was mostly for decorative purposes, but there were some other considerations as well. By using the aluminum tubes, we can make the capacitors smaller in size, which is actually an added benefit. Super MKP capacitors like the Superior and Silver Z-Caps are double foil capacitors, which in simplified terms means winding together two capacitors within one housing. To make Super MKP capacitors, you need 4 times the amount foil as used in standard type MKP capacitors per microfarad. This makes Super MKP capacitors very large in size and can lead to space issues, especially in smaller size enclosures/crossover designs, if a lot of microfarads are needed for example for the mid-range. By making the capacitors physically smaller, we are opening up the application possibilities for more crossover/speaker designs, which was something that many of our customers wanted. When we made the capacitors without the aluminum tubes, we needed more resin to protect the capacitor windings (foil) itself and to add rigidity to the construction. The anodized aluminum tubes are very rigid and also offer excellent protection during shipping and also if they are handled a bit roughly by the user. With the new design we have basically eliminated the risk of the capacitor being dented / the inner capacitor/foil taking damage. The aluminum tube and the added protection / rigidity it offers, has made it redundant to use a lot of excess resin filling, which in return makes the capacitors smaller and easier to fit. We did of course make sure that there is still enough resin to keep the integrity of the construction and to avoid unwanted vibrations, etc. For us and for many customers this is a win/win situation. We had made extensive tests, before making the decision to change the manufacturing process and all our measuring and listening tests has shown no difference in sonic properties, performance or any signs of impact on longevity for re-designed capacitors. The person that has the most experience of all with our capacitors, is Mr. Troels Gravesen (a well-known speaker designer from Denmark) who has designed more than 100 speakers using our components. We have had many dialogues with him, as well as both speaker manufacturers and keen DIY builders about the subject. So far all the feedback has been that there is no difference in performance/sonic behavior between the previous capacitors without the aluminum tubes (more resin) and the new capacitors with aluminum tubes (less resin).We try our best to make everyone happy, but it is unfortunately not always possible. I fully respect that you prefer the “old” capacitors and how they felt in hand and how the sounded when tapping them, but I can assure you that there is no difference in performance.The switch in production method is more expensive, so it is was not done from a savings perspective, but mainly due to us streamlining the Z-Cap series in appearance, which added some benefits like smaller sizing and added outer protection of the capacitors as well."
"When we decided to add anodized aluminum tubes it was mostly for decorative purposes, but there were some other considerations as well. By using the aluminum tubes, we can make the capacitors smaller in size, which is actually an added benefit. Super MKP capacitors like the Superior and Silver Z-Caps are double foil capacitors, which in simplified terms means winding together two capacitors within one housing. To make Super MKP capacitors, you need 4 times the amount foil as used in standard type MKP capacitors per microfarad. This makes Super MKP capacitors very large in size and can lead to space issues, especially in smaller size enclosures/crossover designs, if a lot of microfarads are needed for example for the mid-range. By making the capacitors physically smaller, we are opening up the application possibilities for more crossover/speaker designs, which was something that many of our customers wanted. When we made the capacitors without the aluminum tubes, we needed more resin to protect the capacitor windings (foil) itself and to add rigidity to the construction. The anodized aluminum tubes are very rigid and also offer excellent protection during shipping and also if they are handled a bit roughly by the user. With the new design we have basically eliminated the risk of the capacitor being dented / the inner capacitor/foil taking damage. The aluminum tube and the added protection / rigidity it offers, has made it redundant to use a lot of excess resin filling, which in return makes the capacitors smaller and easier to fit. We did of course make sure that there is still enough resin to keep the integrity of the construction and to avoid unwanted vibrations, etc. For us and for many customers this is a win/win situation. We had made extensive tests, before making the decision to change the manufacturing process and all our measuring and listening tests has shown no difference in sonic properties, performance or any signs of impact on longevity for re-designed capacitors. The person that has the most experience of all with our capacitors, is Mr. Troels Gravesen (a well-known speaker designer from Denmark) who has designed more than 100 speakers using our components. We have had many dialogues with him, as well as both speaker manufacturers and keen DIY builders about the subject. So far all the feedback has been that there is no difference in performance/sonic behavior between the previous capacitors without the aluminum tubes (more resin) and the new capacitors with aluminum tubes (less resin).We try our best to make everyone happy, but it is unfortunately not always possible. I fully respect that you prefer the “old” capacitors and how they felt in hand and how the sounded when tapping them, but I can assure you that there is no difference in performance.The switch in production method is more expensive, so it is was not done from a savings perspective, but mainly due to us streamlining the Z-Cap series in appearance, which added some benefits like smaller sizing and added outer protection of the capacitors as well."
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