Hi, I have a power amp in which I want to upgrade the power supply caps (bigger and better than the original ones) and I want to understand which is the best cap between Mundorf M-Lytic, Vishay BC Components, Panasonic FM and Kendeil.
I think that the most important parameters are ESR, ESL and ripple but I can't find the data of all of this products so I'd like to hear your opinion, thanks
I think that the most important parameters are ESR, ESL and ripple but I can't find the data of all of this products so I'd like to hear your opinion, thanks
Just install some additional capacitors of the same or greater voltage rating in parallel. Preferably, add some to provide bypassing where the power supply connects to the output transistors or IC.
Beware that too much capacitance might prevent the power supply from starting up. It can be worked around by slowing down the soft start rate, but doing so may involve a lot of reverse engineering and modification.
Beware that too much capacitance might prevent the power supply from starting up. It can be worked around by slowing down the soft start rate, but doing so may involve a lot of reverse engineering and modification.
Hi Neong, it might help if you specify size and voltage as well. The panasonic FM's max out at 1000uf 50V so depending on the voltage you need and the size they may be out of contention before you start.
The M-Lytics sound good from the sales pitch, but they are expensive. Haven't tried so can't comment.
Vishay BC is rather broad, they have many different models of caps some may be more suitable than others. I've not ever looked at the specs on any Kendeil caps.
I ended up going for Nichicon KG's (yet to be installed) based on a recommendation by a well respected amp designer, and because they seem to be relatively good value for money.
Those mlytics do sound kinda nice though if money isn't an object, whether it is a case of diminishing returns (or just plain marketing) though I couldn't say.
Tony.
The M-Lytics sound good from the sales pitch, but they are expensive. Haven't tried so can't comment.
Vishay BC is rather broad, they have many different models of caps some may be more suitable than others. I've not ever looked at the specs on any Kendeil caps.
I ended up going for Nichicon KG's (yet to be installed) based on a recommendation by a well respected amp designer, and because they seem to be relatively good value for money.
Those mlytics do sound kinda nice though if money isn't an object, whether it is a case of diminishing returns (or just plain marketing) though I couldn't say.
Tony.
I have tried M-lytics, Panasonic FM's and Nichi FG's and found them all to be excellent. A good comparison by Eric Juaneda is here: High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors
Thank you all 
@audi0:
beside the fact that they are all good have you noticed any sonic differences between them?
I also remember that I have to use them for the power supply, not on the signal path.
Actually the amp has 8 80 V 10.000 uF caps, so 40.000 uF for channell, too few. I want to upgrade to 60.000 or better 80.000 uF for channell, so I have to choices: to use bigger caps (say 22.000) in the same number of the original ones, so I can use the same board or make a completely new board with 16 caps 10.000 uF each.
@audi0:
beside the fact that they are all good have you noticed any sonic differences between them?
I also remember that I have to use them for the power supply, not on the signal path.
Actually the amp has 8 80 V 10.000 uF caps, so 40.000 uF for channell, too few. I want to upgrade to 60.000 or better 80.000 uF for channell, so I have to choices: to use bigger caps (say 22.000) in the same number of the original ones, so I can use the same board or make a completely new board with 16 caps 10.000 uF each.
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IMO, data sheets won't help you much. They give the maximum values but the actual performance of the caps will depend on how conservative the manufacturer is in rating them. Hardly anybody does comprehensive measurements so all you're left with is anecdotal opinions based on caps that might have been correctly specified and applied, or not. Some questions don't have definitive answers.
Hope that this is of some use
EPCOS SIKOREL if you can afford them !
also Elna cerafine_if you can find them?
JENSEN Four pole.
This site is a good read_the Naim section in particular
Just one thing about music - when it hits you feel no pain
DIYAUDIO member elviukai site had a good subjective evaluation
of various types_an honest opinion for what its worth....
http://highend.projektas.lt/
Yours Sincerely
John
PS
I can't get his site to come up for me_but this is what he had to say
9.Epcos Sikorel 105.
photo
Click for larger picture
The impressive data(very low Tan factor,high temperature ability,and stability,high current ripple,special materials used and patented process prevents from inductance and resistanse.) makes this cap usable in medicine,audio,and professional equipment. the size of the cap is a pain when planing suplies-
photo
Click for larger picture
Sikorel- 4700uf/ Nichicon-2x2200uf /Nippon-chemi-con -10 000uf
photo
Click for larger picture
To be true- this is king of capacitors. By all means its outperforms all previously mentioned caps ,leaving them behind. Excellent transparency,detail, but realy what impressed me its dynamic and speed . Its amazing how they differs from other tested caps. Yup,they are expensive when you planning about 150 000uf and up capacity but they still cheaper than to build batteries for this kind of amp. I did experiment - reduced capacity by half and the amp did not sound very undynamic or discorted. When I repeated the same with other caps I immediately noticed that amp is "hungry" and distorted especially on low dynamic passages. The inrush current seems is slightly smoother with them comparing with others caps.
Very highly recommended on high budget or lower power amps.
97%
10.Siemens Sikorel
EPCOS SIKOREL if you can afford them !
also Elna cerafine_if you can find them?
JENSEN Four pole.
This site is a good read_the Naim section in particular
Just one thing about music - when it hits you feel no pain
DIYAUDIO member elviukai site had a good subjective evaluation
of various types_an honest opinion for what its worth....
http://highend.projektas.lt/
Yours Sincerely
John
PS
I can't get his site to come up for me_but this is what he had to say
9.Epcos Sikorel 105.
photo
Click for larger picture
The impressive data(very low Tan factor,high temperature ability,and stability,high current ripple,special materials used and patented process prevents from inductance and resistanse.) makes this cap usable in medicine,audio,and professional equipment. the size of the cap is a pain when planing suplies-
photo
Click for larger picture
Sikorel- 4700uf/ Nichicon-2x2200uf /Nippon-chemi-con -10 000uf
photo
Click for larger picture
To be true- this is king of capacitors. By all means its outperforms all previously mentioned caps ,leaving them behind. Excellent transparency,detail, but realy what impressed me its dynamic and speed . Its amazing how they differs from other tested caps. Yup,they are expensive when you planning about 150 000uf and up capacity but they still cheaper than to build batteries for this kind of amp. I did experiment - reduced capacity by half and the amp did not sound very undynamic or discorted. When I repeated the same with other caps I immediately noticed that amp is "hungry" and distorted especially on low dynamic passages. The inrush current seems is slightly smoother with them comparing with others caps.
Very highly recommended on high budget or lower power amps.
97%
10.Siemens Sikorel
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I do not think finding the best elcap is so simple, because what is called upon can be very different from amp to amp.
Lately I´ve been building a switched mode amp, which has a PSRR out of this world, but a lot of experiments showed that low ESR had a large impact on sound quality.
In other experiments my experience was somewhat different, as i.e. Silmic actually is a well sounding cap, as well as Rifa PEH 169, Epcos Sikorel and others. But in the switch amp case they were not.
So some amps need certain parameters to be optimized, and others need different properties.
But the ultimate solution I´ve ever heard was NO ELECTROLYTICS. Utilising shunt regulators eliminate the need for caps, and I swear by the god almighty, that you will never miss any of them.
They are actually terrible all of them, so if possible avoid them.
Another tip is to make one - and just one bypass both after rectification and after regulation. Use polyphenylenesulphid for that purpose, and use as large values as possible.
Polyphenylenesulphide is normally only recommended for very high temperature operation, but I found out that i.e. Evox also recommends them for audio, which amongst other things made me try them out.
IMHO they are by far the most neutral sounding cap I´ve ever heard, and they don´t seem to have any intrinsic colour ending up in SQ, when used for decoupling and i n some cases also for filtration, when cleverly done.
Just try it out.
Lately I´ve been building a switched mode amp, which has a PSRR out of this world, but a lot of experiments showed that low ESR had a large impact on sound quality.
In other experiments my experience was somewhat different, as i.e. Silmic actually is a well sounding cap, as well as Rifa PEH 169, Epcos Sikorel and others. But in the switch amp case they were not.
So some amps need certain parameters to be optimized, and others need different properties.
But the ultimate solution I´ve ever heard was NO ELECTROLYTICS. Utilising shunt regulators eliminate the need for caps, and I swear by the god almighty, that you will never miss any of them.
They are actually terrible all of them, so if possible avoid them.
Another tip is to make one - and just one bypass both after rectification and after regulation. Use polyphenylenesulphid for that purpose, and use as large values as possible.
Polyphenylenesulphide is normally only recommended for very high temperature operation, but I found out that i.e. Evox also recommends them for audio, which amongst other things made me try them out.
IMHO they are by far the most neutral sounding cap I´ve ever heard, and they don´t seem to have any intrinsic colour ending up in SQ, when used for decoupling and i n some cases also for filtration, when cleverly done.
Just try it out.
Ok, thank you all, I'll come to the point:
I'll be working on this (not me really, a friend of mine who is aDIYer of itself): Thomann Amp TA2400:
We will put it in a better enclosure (HiFi2000 Pesante Dissipante 3U), change all the cables with better ones (silver/Teflon for the signal), substitute or remove all those white ceramic resistors, substitute all the resistors on the signal path with at least Dale 1% or better and remove all the secondary cards (the ones on the output and the ones for the 2 knobs: we will simply put gain at max, without any knob, I'll regulate volume from the pre amp), but most important of all, we will substitute entirely the power supply section:
- We are thinking to use Mundorf M-Lytic HC (which have the best ESR and ESL values of all) in this way:
4 22.000 uF 80 V
2 10.000 uF 80 V
and finally 2 10 uF 800 V Mundorf MCap Supreme
do you have some suggestions for the bypass caps for this section?
- We are also thinking about Silver/Mica on the feedback loop, do you think that teflon tin foil, polystyrene caps, paper in oil caps or mylar caps (like the russian PETP) will be better here?
- For the rectifier section we think to follow Nelson Pass idea and so not use Schottky ultra fast diodes: we are thinking about normal diodes, like KBPC, each one with a Wima MKP 10 for filtering, do you think something else would be better?
-For the smoothing circuit we are thinking about Elna Silmic II or Epcos Sikorel LL, do you have different suggestions? And which caps to use for bypassing them?
- Finally we still don't know if this PA is direct coupled or not, in the second case we have to decide coupling caps
I'll be working on this (not me really, a friend of mine who is aDIYer of itself): Thomann Amp TA2400:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
We will put it in a better enclosure (HiFi2000 Pesante Dissipante 3U), change all the cables with better ones (silver/Teflon for the signal), substitute or remove all those white ceramic resistors, substitute all the resistors on the signal path with at least Dale 1% or better and remove all the secondary cards (the ones on the output and the ones for the 2 knobs: we will simply put gain at max, without any knob, I'll regulate volume from the pre amp), but most important of all, we will substitute entirely the power supply section:
- We are thinking to use Mundorf M-Lytic HC (which have the best ESR and ESL values of all) in this way:
4 22.000 uF 80 V
2 10.000 uF 80 V
and finally 2 10 uF 800 V Mundorf MCap Supreme
do you have some suggestions for the bypass caps for this section?
- We are also thinking about Silver/Mica on the feedback loop, do you think that teflon tin foil, polystyrene caps, paper in oil caps or mylar caps (like the russian PETP) will be better here?
- For the rectifier section we think to follow Nelson Pass idea and so not use Schottky ultra fast diodes: we are thinking about normal diodes, like KBPC, each one with a Wima MKP 10 for filtering, do you think something else would be better?
-For the smoothing circuit we are thinking about Elna Silmic II or Epcos Sikorel LL, do you have different suggestions? And which caps to use for bypassing them?
- Finally we still don't know if this PA is direct coupled or not, in the second case we have to decide coupling caps
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Hi
BGN or FK is one my of dream
solder several of them to make 10.000 or 20.000uf
Siemens Sikorel for the best supply
if you can afford use it
Philips (blue) sound so sweet for supply
Nichicon Muse KG "super through" good for supply
Elna family cerafine, for audio/stargate has reasonable
price & good value for money
BGN or FK is one my of dream
solder several of them to make 10.000 or 20.000uf
Siemens Sikorel for the best supply
if you can afford use it
Philips (blue) sound so sweet for supply
Nichicon Muse KG "super through" good for supply
Elna family cerafine, for audio/stargate has reasonable
price & good value for money
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