Best electrolytic capacitors

Unless you are prepared to put in a lot of design time designing a PCB component & tracks layout old school point to point wiring will always be superior.

I doubt this to be true (anyone has done objective comparison? :D). I think if you don't know how to make a good PCB layout, you wont be able to make a good point-to-point layout either. So as long as you make the PCB comparably compact (to avoid mistakes, i.e. to avoid making some trace long when it should be short, or to make it wide when it is better not) the result COULD be similar.

Well, of course you can't make 3D connection with PCB but I think it is not necessary. Only in sensitive circuit where trace inductance or capacitance can cause oscillation the technique to float the circuit (or to use guided ring PCB layout technique) is important. In normal power amplifier Nyquist stability is mostly determined by other things.

In the old time, the part leads are all made of tinned copper (so P2P is okay). Nowadays I think many parts have some steel components. This material should be made short imho.

For breadboarded circuit I usually use copper from crossover coils. Two sizes, the big one for ground and power supply (of high currents), smaller one for the rest.
 
The other factor involved is board material which I believe affects sound too.
Frp is not good at least in terms of vibration damping. Dielectric effects me don't know, even for P to P, Frp vs Phenolic boards from what I hear from tube gurus also affects sound. Guess vibration is also evil hence good tube amps should also have tube sockets decoupled.
 
FR4 is not good at least in terms of vibration damping.

Rubber standoffs.

I think if you don't know how to make a good PCB layout, you wont be able to make a good point-to-point layout either.

True.

If you guys are comparing P2P wiring to single sided PCB, then P2P should win, obviously.

P2P over ground plane should also win compared to double sided.

P2P will even beat 4 layers at power plane inductance because kapton tape is thinner than 0.2mm prepreg. But if you want +/-15V power planes, mehhh...

But good luck with that P2P DAC, except ES9023, the package is user-friendly...
 
Quite right Peufeu its obvious those criticizing me for stating this have not spent many decades designing and building audio equipment long before it was made easier by virtualization and modern software .

They obviously never spent year after year reading on EW of well know audio design engineers amending their circuits due to layout and spent a very long time before they produced an actual PCB for others of equal stature to copy .

Its all down to visual looks now , if it looks nice it must sound nice and be technically perfect .
Wiring can be re-routed --just look at the advice given on DIY Audio -- move/re-route this or that wire even PCB computer designed circuits when when put into practical operation have the guy coming on and saying---"this should be perfect but its not --why ? " .

If there is any "magical art " in component and copper trace placement its entirely down to----experience.
 
Quite right Peufeu its obvious those criticizing me for stating this have not spent many decades designing and building audio equipment long before it was made easier by virtualization and modern software .

They obviously never spent year after year reading on EW of well know audio design engineers amending their circuits due to layout and spent a very long time before they produced an actual PCB for others of equal stature to copy .

Its all down to visual looks now , if it looks nice it must sound nice and be technically perfect .

You appear to have absolutely no knowledge on electronic design after 1975. There are close to zero challenging designs that could be constructed by P2P techniques. I mean real-world challenging, not audio magazine circa 1980 challenging.
 
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P2P will even beat 4 layers at power plane inductance because kapton tape is thinner than 0.2mm prepreg. But if you want +/-15V power planes, mehhh...

Except no one will ever construct a high density design using the pcb-like techniques you mention. Or more than one, anyway, unless they are certifiably insane. :D

The people that care about PDN impedance aren't doing P2P construction unless it's out of some idea of fun.
 
Except no one will ever construct a high density design using the pcb-like techniques you mention. Or more than one, anyway, unless they are certifiably insane. :D

The people that care about PDN impedance aren't doing P2P construction unless it's out of some idea of fun.

rofl, yeah.

I used it a few times to prototype filters and get an idea of the impedance of a power plane with decoupling caps, also prototyped regulators and an ES9023 DAC like that, it's an interesting experience on the importance of ground plane... but really, totally unpractical for actual building obviously. Today's cheapo 4 layer (about $20-30 per board!!) will absolutely crush P2P and double sided, even on cost for a DIY project, if you factor in the fact that 4 layers will save tons of time on the layout. I mean, if you got a board with a ton of opamps, it's easy to choose between $20 for 4 layers, or spending a weekend routing +15V and -15V...
 
4 layer costs 20 EURO now...

Who cares about the cost when it comes to passion ?? :)

the way you see things , brings audio ( mostly ) to china , for the better ?? well :rolleyes:

the job shown is a great job , that you are/may not be able to do :wave2:

plenty of our gear here , can be done p2p ( and actually are ) , for the better what ever you say or think :cool:

you may have not understood what audio is all about , FUN and PLEASURE



ps : I forgot , most of your nice PCB are made with the sh....est copper ever , and remember they got to the moon with P2P not pcb
:D

ps1 : how is our brain made , pcb or p2p



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the job shown is a great job , that you are/may not be able to do :wave2:

I removed the RC4558 in a Marantz amp and replaced it with OPA1652. Unfortunately, I'm an idiot, so I ordered it in SSOP.

1621895162642.jpg
 
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That's a memory board.

The CPU itself was built with SMD chips on PCB, hand wired P2P on the back side, probably because multilayer PCBs with the required specs weren't available back in the day. Then the whole thing was epoxied because wire wrap does not tolerate vibrations well. Everywhere they could get away with normal PCBs, they would. It is less error-prone, more reliable, and cheaper.

> the job shown is a great job , that you are/may not be able to do

overture-pm2i_img2.jpg


That could be called a work of art and craftsmanship, it looks very nice, but it's not a work of engineering. It is aesthetic, not technical. It has no shielding and huge parasitics. I care about performance not looks, so why would I build such a thing?
 
For P2P wiring, nobody beats the late Kondo-San: that's some serious work of art.

I fail to spot the greatness in that picture. Yes, a good eye for colour but that's as far as it gets. How hard can it be to solder capacitors to turrets?

Not putting the p2p concept down, far from it. Perhaps 70% of what i build is p2p, but it's neither rocket science, nor art, even when built to look pretty for glossy mags.

As for the sound that Kondo equipment makes ...severely overrated imho. Would much rather have Aries Cerat at a fraction of the cost.
 
It is very well known in audio , that performance doesn't make any sound , it only helps to ,some times ......

have you make any FFT of that ( superb ) board to say it's plenty of issues , not for sure :rolleyes:

but it isn't the point , the point is the man who made it is a passionate guy , and this what this place is all about ;)

we also have some "engineers" that like numbers , class D amps , ESS dac's and they like it cheap , so be it ....

and what do these guys will be remembered for , being so boring for sure :D


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