Improving Braun LV1020

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Big thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge about condensers. This is a very productive forum for helping and developing hobbies. I know there are many professional professionals and very strong fans with a lot of experience and they will not disregard me. I read almost everything, but I still have a question. :wave2:
I have a very successful stereo system with a unique sound,
Tri- amp power amplifiers in an active Braun LV1020 speakers that I want to recap and improve .
Each amplifier has a low, mid, high pass filter. and each power amplifier has a separate power supply.
The original power circuit has one transformer and two AC voltage outputs to the LF, MF amplifier, and the other winding feeds the HF amplifier. I want to add a transformer so that each amplifier has its own power supply.

Different capacitors have different voices, some are ideal on HF, but they have problems with bass, others sing well in the middle and so on. In the version with three amps, it is possible to select specific capacitors for each frequency, for bass, midrange, and treble.
If you had such an opportunity to put your separate capacitors on each dividing frequency amp , which one would you choose of capacitors ?
Can you tell me from your experience which capacitors you would put in each individual PS for 3 amps LF, MF, HF ?
What kind of capacitors would be good for the signal of the LF, MF, HF amplifier ?


Brown LV 1020 has a very good voice, natural sound, separation of instruments and it is difficult to find amplified speakers to sound so good.
I specifically went to go High End salons to listen high class equipment so that I can compare what I have and how it sounds for big money. All I heard was not impressed, the difference in cost was 100 times more.

If someone is interested in the schematic and detailed documentation of the Brown amplifiers, I can share it.


I listen to different music, different styles through the DAC Antolpa Zadiak . In the future I will play vinyl.
If someone wants to listen how sounds of the Braun LV1020, welcome, I am in Philadelphia.

Sorry if I'm writing something wrong , my english not so good .
Thanks
 

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My 2 cents. You should never use 1 type or brand of cap on any circuit.
You should always mix to get the best sound but this means lots of testing cause example A cap may sound very good in one location but the minute you use it on another location it may not sound that good. Yes the engineers or circuit experts here will frown at my comments but Im not bothered by it cause I know what Im saying simply because I tweak & test all the time. This is where I discover & learn the pros & cons.

Cheers
 
You will get many different opinions, and your best bet will be to audition a few different varieties. I have no idea how your system sounds or how you'd like to tune it with your cap choices, but just shooting from the hip, I generally think that Silmic II is great on bass, while Cerafines and Nichicon KZ (or FG and KA If you need higher values) have more midrange presence. And hmmm for treble, gosh you'll want to try a few, as I think it will be hugely dependent on the brightness of your system, but perhaps try FG and Silmic again, along with Panasonic FC, and lately I'm impressed with Chemicon KYB. You may even want to try a PP bypass cap in the treble amp to see if you hear a difference. Let us know what you come up with.
 
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Okay, an unpopular opinion follows ..

Any good quality capacitor in the signal path will sound great compared to the cheap stuff and tantalum or ceramic capacitors. Relax and use any good industrial brand you can get from the proper distribution network. For over 40 years I've listened to and measured amplifier performance (and signal stages). I have yet to confirm any advice given so far about specific capacitor brands. But if it makes you happy, go for it.

Don't obsess about not having the capacitor du jour. There are lots of ways to improve performance, but they require training to implement properly.

-Chris
 
Hi sumotan, here you are.:) I read a lot and wrote down what you said and others about capacitors . Anyone use or tried for PS , United Chemi-Con U32D Series capacitor ? The characteristics are very good at 18K uf 100v with high current A . How good will it be for a LF amplifier for bass in PS? Same capacitors for audio PS look very nice on the outside, but either there are no complete characteristics or they are weak from which you can hear different reviews of the owners about the same capacitor.

Another interesting thing, the sound depends on the material from which the dielectric is made. In fact, the dielectric stores electricity, sometimes the characteristic of capacitor is good, and the dielectric itself is bad (synthetic) because of this there can be problems in the sound. Do you know what kind of capacitor on the power supply will give good high frequencies with PS for HF amplifier ? I have an HF amplifier capacitor 63v 3300uf .

You will get many different opinions, and your best bet will be to audition a few different varieties. I have no idea how your system sounds or how you'd like to tune it with your cap choices, but just shooting from the hip, I generally think that Silmic II is great on bass, while Cerafines and Nichicon KZ (or FG and KA If you need higher values) have more midrange presence. And hmmm for treble, gosh you'll want to try a few, as I think it will be hugely dependent on the brightness of your system, but perhaps try FG and Silmic again, along with Panasonic FC, and lately I'm impressed with Chemicon KYB. You may even want to try a PP bypass cap in the treble amp to see if you hear a difference. Let us know what you come up with.
Thanks a lot . I'm copy this text like other good information about capacitors for my DIY project .

For silmic II i have a lot of different story from forum, I never try this caps like and different ones , just started . For example from different owners Silmic II: I don't want Hi-Fi soft like woofer bass on 50-60hz . I need truly detailed massive bass from 20hz with all vibration on like on records . I save text what people review from own experience: A number of other people here have said that Silmics sound "slow" or "blur detail." I can only imagine that perhaps they weren't run long enough. Silmics, after qbout 80-100 hours to burn in, present the most natural mid-to-high range of any 'lytic (to my ear). That said, they still don't have as tight a bass as the Cerafines (or Nichicon KG).
/////////// If your build only has one position for the output caps, try and find a way to parallel the Cerafine and Silmic II. I find the Silmics have very lifelike timbral texture, but are otherwise a little too warm and lacking in detail. The Cerafines are crisp and detailed, similar to Black Gates, with good texture in a different range than the Silmics - also a very tight soundstage and cool overall sound. The two types together really balance each other out nicely.
//////// I'm not a big fan of Silmic 2, they sound a bit too soft and cuddly. Nichicon FW sound much more neutral to my ears. Nichicon KZ sound quite similar to a film caps, but that can be a bad thing because they sound too bright In the upper midrange In two of my amps and one of my dacs (As do all film caps I've tried).

My active speakers , my stereo system very open sound , no compression in sound, like flat modern sound , a lot of air , all instruments separate and natural , very good natural controlled bass . 20-20000hz at any volume low and high there is a good natural sound and bass, , but there is a bump between 100 and 200 Hz (maybe room problems or not enough power for the bass amplifier ???)it was build for 50hz AC . I would like to push the stage forward (I like it ). The middle range little high 3db-4db from 800 to 3000 Hz. On bright recordings it a little not comfort listening , removed this problem by digital EQ , i thinks for MF wll be best Silmic II . I'm just wondering how much I can improve the sound by changing the capacitors, adding a transformer for low frequencies AMP and a PS filter with good capacitors plus recap all with different sounding capacitors . Thanks again for help and sharing yours experience .
 
Hi Pashka
Since you already like the sound of your speakers may I suggest you to try another simple mod first. Go change the speaker internal wiring to Duelund 16awg for mids & low & use 20awg for tweeter. Don’t under estimate the wires, makes a fair bit of change to the Sq.
Im using it in part of my ML speaker
 
Hi sumotan . Speaker cable very short ,(original) better make good AC cable later and many other things DIY .
I try recap amp and add more AC /DC power for LH amp only, because Amp of active speakers have small size transformer and small one capacitor 4700uf 100v for LH and MF amp , but sound gorgeous . I founded Epcos B41456 capacitor for my new extra PS for LH amp . Capacitor 22Kuf 100v 45A.
And I don't know maybe this power from capacitor 45A blow my 2N3055 transistors in one moment ? Maybe somebody can help me ?
Tomorow I w'll buy different name capacitors . w'll see ,
Silmic II , KZ , FG .
 
Pashka,

A capacitor doesn't blow an amplifier's output, so the Epcos maximum current is not to blame for that.

22000uF won't even blow a good bridge either, as the turn on current peak demand should be within its specs. What type is the bridge? That should blow before the transistors probably.

Depending on the amp design, it might be interesting using better transistors. 2N3055 are too old.

What may blow transistors is within the amp: oscillation, too much bias current, etc.
 
Hi Pashka
I know it’s short but I assure you, you’ll hear the difference.
You mind share the kind of sound you are after now ?

I know, I want to improve the sound step by step so that I know what influenced and how. I have not done the search for information wire inside speakers yet, but I know one quality of the wire, and AWG is important, but another important factor is that these are magnetic fields, the configuration of the wire. This greatly changes the sound with the same sound. Another interesting idea is to look at the amplifier Dynaco ST 120, the capacitor is wrapped with wire and one end is thrown to the output. A good example is when a manufacturer knew about the influence of a magnetic field of its importance on sound.

I can not remember what is familiar that is ML speaker ?
 
Hi Pashka
My speakers are Martin Logan Odyssey. Anway it nice that your going to try out to learn for yourself but try not to get caught up with too much technicalities. The way I tweak my set up is too many a heresy cause I don’t follow by the book. I try, I test so it is a very slow & timing consumming approach but what I learn is what the text book never teaches or perhaps not recommended. Lol. I would suggest that you start with the bridge rectifiers & the main PS caps first, this for me has always been the most important part. Still I would still strongly suggest that you change the internal wires first , no fancy twisting etc & don’t get caught up with wire gauge. FYI my speaker wires are just a single run of Duelund 16 awg & its sounds really good & because it sounded so gd I venture inside the speakers & change part of the internal wires to Duelund as well.

Cheers
 
Pashka,

What type is the bridge? That should blow before the transistors probably.

Depending on the amp design, it might be interesting using better transistors. 2N3055 are too old.

What may blow transistors is within the amp: oscillation, too much bias current, etc.

Thanks for help carlmart , this is good news from you .
The original bridge for two LF and MF amplifiers is the B80C5000.
So what I want to do is add a 200VA transformer and separate LF amplifier , add bridge, and put the 22000 uf for power up the bass amplifier separately,
the original transformer will work for the mid , an high-range amplifier. Here is what separate PS for MF and HF amps , what capacitor w'll be good ?


transistor 2N3055 make job on LF and MF amplifiers . On HF amplifier got 2N5494 . So what i read on forum old 2N3055 sounding much better then modern the same transistors .
Hard to get info how is sounding other transistors ,for better replacement specific for Lf , MF and Hf amps .

Hi Pashka
My speakers are Martin Logan Odyssey. Anway it nice that your going to try out to learn for yourself but try not to get caught up with too much technicalities. The way I tweak my set up is too many a heresy cause I don’t follow by the book. I try, I test so it is a very slow & timing consumming approach but what I learn is what the text book never teaches or perhaps not recommended. Lol. I would suggest that you start with the bridge rectifiers & the main PS caps first, this for me has always been the most important part.

Cheers

Thanks sumotan I'll check this wire .
What bridge w'lll be good for 3 different amps . Original I got 2 bridge for LH,MF B-80-C5000
for Hf amp B-80-C3300 .
Now I w'll have separate PS for LF with 22000uf and what best bridge recommended , may be replays old one with better ?


This is schematic .
720770d1544295240-electrolytic-capacitors-schematic-lv1020-jpg
 
For amplifiers I only use Shindengen bridges, they’re about the best that I’ve tried. Grainless & very smooth sounding yes that took me by surprise too. Since it is 3 amps you must think of it as 1 amp ya especially for Mid & LF. If you voice them differently you’ll end up having a none harmonious sound.

Btw Pashka who give you the idea of changing the LF main PS value to 22000 uf ?
Given that the mids a dome, my guesstimate is that the woofer would at least have to work to about 500hz & this my fren is into midrange territory. With 22000 uf just for LF you’ll kill the sound for sure, first thing that you’ll notice is music sound very tight & constraint.
A very simple test to proof my point, go buy some cheap 22000uf caps put it in there sit back & listen

Cheers
 
Good question about who gave the idea. No one . I decided that. if divide the power on the midrange and woofer between amps, then it will be a good upgrade. The transformer is now common with two power outputs (LF+MF) and another for HF. with different bridges .
The transformer itself is physically small , limited in the power supply, small capacitors look like so as not to overload the transformer. I am not a specialist in this area. I decided to add a transformer 200VA for the low-frequency amplifier, and leave the midrange on the old transformer , so I thought to increase the capacitance of the LF power supply and MF . Now there is a small capacitor with big ESR and low apms.
How upgrade right ?

right now on both amps LF, MF one small capacitor . this one , only 100v not 63v
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
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Transformer limited in power supply, do you really think so Pashka ? As to the small value caps well I like it & I think the Mid & LF amps are producing around 30-40 watts of power ?
If the bass does not sound whimpy now, then keep to the original value. The addition of a transformer will help tighten up the sound but 200va !!!!! that’s over kill but this I leave it to you. Happy tweaking

Btw Phaska use the same type of trafo as the original & if it’s me I will look for the same or close to Va ratings as the original, that should provide enough head room for the LF amp.
 
Transformer limited in power supply, do you really think so Pashka ? As to the small value caps well I like it & I think the Mid & LF amps are producing around 30-40 watts of power ?
If the bass does not sound whimpy now, then keep to the original value. The addition of a transformer will help tighten up the sound but 200va !!!!! that’s over kill but this I leave it to you. Happy tweaking

Thanks a lot for help sumotan
Yes you right , power of each amps on one channel : LF 40, Mf 20, HF15. Play from 20-25000hz (DIN 45500)
One problem I have bump around 140hz 8db ,pro app EQ help me cut this bump .

I want try to give more power. I will experiment on the second set of amplifiers, bought in Germany.
Electrical (active) 320Hz 7000Hz crossover,
On the board, I can adjust level each amplifier , as well as 3 volume controls for each speaker on the front panel.

I do not understand one thing, why can it become worse if I add a separate power supply to the low-frequency amplifier? All 3 amplifiers power will be independent. Why the same transformer not other?
Sorry sumotan I'm don't know a lot , and thanks for helping me . :cheers:

Not too much inside , but I do not know from where this amplifier has so much powerful dope. For all the time I have never heard that there was an overload with any volume level .

sumotan I have 3D sound on my stereo and I want move stage forward . How make stage forward, what capacitor doing this job or something else ? thanks
 

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You can only tweak the sound Pashka you cannot add more power as it’s inherent in the design & you won’t want to muck around with the circuit design for now. Since the trafo is EI you’ll need to look for an EI trafo for the LH as well. Why cause you want to keep the tonal quality & speed of the LF side to match closely to the Mids. Frankly even if you use a seperate EI trafo for the LF, there’s no assurance that it will match the MiD nicely simply because EI core material etc etc. This you would need to test & find out for yourself.
I personally do not like a too forward a sound. For Mains PS caps with this signature you can try Nichicon Super Through not Gold Tune ya . For circuit board try Panasonic FC & some Elna Cerafine. Cerafines are very clear & forward so you have to use with care.
Do not make too many changes at 1 go. I always test 1 location at a time. You have to allow the caps to burn in as sound will change.
 
Thanks sumotan you the best .
Does the EL transformer or toroidal sound different? I'll adjust level between LF and HF . I do not need high volume, I want to reveal the greater musical potential of these amplifier wirh speakers, which sound right now excellent, airy, realistic, spacious, truthful, dynamic, clear, natural and all instruments are separate.
Thanks for the help .
I know that you do not like the forward stage, I read earlier what you wrote. I listened expensive High end friend of mine store for half a million $ , it was like in headphones, it was not stereo, it was presence, the musicians were nearby. I was seek about this .
Over the past two months, I esoterically made a three-dimensional sound in my system, no cost, probably my gadgets work the same as with these Center Stage With Pitch Perfect Sound, but for free.

I looked bridges that you told me.
There are a lot of them on the Mouser Electronics - Electronic Components Distributor site, what would you recommend from this web site bridge for LF, MF, HF? Maybe you need some characteristics of the amplifier? Should I change the old ones? Thanks again .

Ops i got Question. How impotent in signal board replays old capacitor with the same voltage or higher? I check a lot of specification capacitor with higher voltage have lower ESR and more Ampere bigger size .
Other things so what I see , a lot of people compare capacitor for PS , and good one which like it everybody, this capacitors have a great value ampiry.
 
If you already enjoy the sound of these speakers then you shouldn’t alter too much.
Changing a cap will change the sound ya. So still back to my earlier suggestion, change the internal speaker wiring first. As for the trafo EI has always sound more analog to me over Toroid & off course it is until recent times that someone measured noise & found out toroids are wide band will allows more nasties to pass through to the secondary windings.

Yes higher voltage caps of same values will have lower esr but esr is not the be it all for SQ.
You’ve heard of Black Gates right, their esr is actually not very low when compared to other caps of same value & voltage. It’s very hard to tell you how & well to tweak cause every circuit behaves differently. What one needs to learn is what each component sonic signature is like & from there you test, mix & match to get to the sound that your looking for. Let’s not forget resistors these little guys affect sound greatly too ya especially in ways of signal path. Mains caps 63v or 100v should be fine but if different brand frm original sound will change ya & when you change both MF & LF has to be replace.
 
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Wow, I have to say that so much here isn't supported factually at all. There are so many things that can affect the sound other than teh capacitor too. Even the circuit layout will overshadow what a decent capacitor sounds like. Of course, the best capacitors do not have a sound at all.

So many people are worried about wire, capacitors and such without even looking at the other basics. No instruments means there is no reference point for characteristics. Even my LCR meter is an excellent predictor of capacitor performance. Mind you, it's an expensive instrument for me. In the thousands, the ESR meters are useless. Most cheap ones don't measure dissipation and tend to be inaccurate on top of that.

I know many of you are doing your best to determine what the best parts are, but most simply don't have the tools you need to be successful. Expectation bias then kicks in and you believe what you want to. Those people will defend their choices to the death. What a curious hobby this can be.

The best advice I can give many of you is relax, keep an open mind and just use good quality capacitors. If you decide on a single model of capacitor - fine. Just don't get into an argument with others. I'm going to bet you can't tell the difference if you didn't know which capacitor was installed. I know this is the case as I have often experimented with people. :devilr: What I do know for certain is that the best sounding capacitors measure among the more perfect capacitors. Yes, you can actually select capacitors using instruments and be right - every time. That's bound to be an unpopular comment.

-Chris
 
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