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Old 25th June 2016, 11:25 PM   #681
Karl vd Berg is offline Karl vd Berg
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Lightbulb Electrolytics - Polarized vs. Bipolar

Best electrolytic capacitors


Thank you all for the replies.

Just out of the curiosity (and learning by doing it), I just tried both types in a small Pioneer amp, and the Panasonic (bipolar) is MUCH MORE defined than the polarized Elna (which is "audio grade", mind you).

At least, that's my first impression. The Panasonic BP adds more soundstage, the Elna was just flat sound...

I'm going to leave the BP in the amp for a few days.

Thank you again.
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Old 25th June 2016, 11:34 PM   #682
jcx is offline jcx  United States
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Bipolar really should only need ~2x the volume - so why the 2x dia And longer case?

must be some very different spec between them other than bipolar
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Old 26th June 2016, 12:02 AM   #683
Karl vd Berg is offline Karl vd Berg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
Bipolar really should only need ~2x the volume - so why the 2x dia And longer case?

must be some very different spec between them other than bipolar
Yes, that also caught my attention...

Normally the 2.2uF, the 3.3uF and even the 4.7uF are pretty small ones, in the 10 x 5 mm dimension.

These two 2.2uF bipolar I pulled them out from the PSU board of a TV (there were also 1 pair of complementary 2SA1535A / 2SC3944A, video transistors with fT of 200MHz).
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Old 26th June 2016, 01:00 AM   #684
Karl vd Berg is offline Karl vd Berg
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Here the bipolar cap installed. Note another 22uF bipolar cap at right, smaller...

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The TV model in which these BP caps were found, I believe it's the Panasonic TX-32PL1 and, according to its SM, there are 2 types of 2.2uF / 50V caps used in this model: ECEA1HN2R2 and ECA1HM2R2GB.
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Old 26th June 2016, 01:19 AM   #685
hitsware is offline hitsware
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticknpop View Post
Read Bateman - adding bias isn't as good as a real bipolar cap for distortion

Section 5 shows with varying amounts of bias distortion does change on the polarized electrolytic, even back to back ones but it is still twice or more than the distortion of the bipolar electrolytic capacitor.
To qoute Batemen's summary:

" In every case the bipolar capacitor produced much lower levels of distortion than measured on similar value and voltage polar capacitors."
Too bad there's not higher value one's available ....
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Old 26th June 2016, 09:27 AM   #686
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticknpop View Post
Actually the bipolar caps are better than series connected polarized caps -
See Cryil Batemen cap articles
I thought they said that a back to back polar pair was just about the same as a bi-polar when used as a filter with a high AC voltage across the capacitors.

What was better for this filter duty was back to back bi-polar which turned out to be almost as good as MKT/MKS/Mylar film capacitors.

But the DC blocking capacitor at the input of an amplifier is not used to filter the audio signal. It has virtually no Audio Signal voltage across it/them. The results for filtering duty do not apply at this location.

Set the F-3dB of the DC blocking capacitor at least a decade below the required audio frequency passband and the capacitor can be just about any plastic film type. If you use electrolytic instead of film then lower the F-3db by another octave. This brings it to about the frequency where D.Self reports that distortion is inconsequential.

If you have an input impedance of 100k and 0.8uF (use 1uF), then you have that decade below 20Hz and for electrolytic use 2.2uF for <1/20th of 20Hz
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Old 26th June 2016, 09:30 AM   #687
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl vd Berg View Post
Best electrolytic capacitors


Thank you all for the replies.

Just out of the curiosity (and learning by doing it), I just tried both types in a small Pioneer amp, and the Panasonic (bipolar) is MUCH MORE defined than the polarized Elna (which is "audio grade", mind you).

At least, that's my first impression. The Panasonic BP adds more soundstage, the Elna was just flat sound...

I'm going to leave the BP in the amp for a few days.

Thank you again.
What is the impedance it is feeding?
What is the filtering frequency?
Are you filtering off some of the audio band?
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Old 26th June 2016, 01:26 PM   #688
Karl vd Berg is offline Karl vd Berg
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Lightbulb Electrolytics - Bipolar vs Polarized

Hi Andrew,

The 2.2uF bipolar is just replacing another polarized 2.2uF cap at the input of an amp. We know that a film cap in that position performs better than any electrolytic, but I am looking (and trying) if bipolar electrolytics perform any better than any "audio grade" polarized cap. And... so far, so good: the 2.2uF bipolar gives more dynamics, more details to the sound than its polarized audio grade counterpart, an "Elna For Audio" cap.

I'll leave the amp like this for a few days and later try a MKP cap of the same value to see how it performs. Thanks.

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Old 26th June 2016, 02:40 PM   #689
Ken Newton is offline Ken Newton  United States
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My experience is that all film caps do not sound superior to all electrolytic caps. For example, I find that 4.7uF 50V 'N' type non-polar Black Gate electrolytic sounds far superior to an metalized polypropylene film ClarityCap when used for input signal coupling. Although Blacks Gates are out of production and becoming hard to find, a search of distributor stocks for a pair of non-polar BGs fitting your PCB would be well worth the effort, IMHO.
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Old 26th June 2016, 03:13 PM   #690
jfetter is offline jfetter  Costa Rica
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Best electrolytic capacitors
I measured the THD and fft profiles. There are large differences!

The true BP is manufactured with totally different process.

-
pic of new arrival from mouser. The 330uf 50v were non stocked order.

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