Go Back   Home > Forums > >

Parts Where to get, and how to make the best bits. PCB's, caps, transformers, etc.

Best electrolytic capacitors
Best electrolytic capacitors
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 17th May 2021, 09:47 AM   #1881
Gonethesame is offline Gonethesame  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucks bunny View Post
With a lack of knowledge of accurate pcb design this technique - known for decades now - must be evil.
With a lack of knowledge of evil pcb design this technique - known for decades now - must be accurate
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2021, 11:11 AM   #1882
johnego is offline johnego  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan2 View Post
Unless you are prepared to put in a lot of design time designing a PCB component & tracks layout old school point to point wiring will always be superior.
I doubt this to be true (anyone has done objective comparison? ). I think if you don't know how to make a good PCB layout, you wont be able to make a good point-to-point layout either. So as long as you make the PCB comparably compact (to avoid mistakes, i.e. to avoid making some trace long when it should be short, or to make it wide when it is better not) the result COULD be similar.

Well, of course you can't make 3D connection with PCB but I think it is not necessary. Only in sensitive circuit where trace inductance or capacitance can cause oscillation the technique to float the circuit (or to use guided ring PCB layout technique) is important. In normal power amplifier Nyquist stability is mostly determined by other things.

In the old time, the part leads are all made of tinned copper (so P2P is okay). Nowadays I think many parts have some steel components. This material should be made short imho.

For breadboarded circuit I usually use copper from crossover coils. Two sizes, the big one for ground and power supply (of high currents), smaller one for the rest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2021, 11:20 AM   #1883
sumotan is online now sumotan  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
The other factor involved is board material which I believe affects sound too.
Frp is not good at least in terms of vibration damping. Dielectric effects me don't know, even for P to P, Frp vs Phenolic boards from what I hear from tube gurus also affects sound. Guess vibration is also evil hence good tube amps should also have tube sockets decoupled.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2021, 11:29 AM   #1884
peufeu is offline peufeu  France
diyAudio Member
 
peufeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lyon, France
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumotan View Post
FR4 is not good at least in terms of vibration damping.
Rubber standoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnego View Post
I think if you don't know how to make a good PCB layout, you wont be able to make a good point-to-point layout either.
True.

If you guys are comparing P2P wiring to single sided PCB, then P2P should win, obviously.

P2P over ground plane should also win compared to double sided.

P2P will even beat 4 layers at power plane inductance because kapton tape is thinner than 0.2mm prepreg. But if you want +/-15V power planes, mehhh...

But good luck with that P2P DAC, except ES9023, the package is user-friendly...
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2021, 02:10 PM   #1885
duncan2 is offline duncan2  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Scotland.
Quite right Peufeu its obvious those criticizing me for stating this have not spent many decades designing and building audio equipment long before it was made easier by virtualization and modern software .

They obviously never spent year after year reading on EW of well know audio design engineers amending their circuits due to layout and spent a very long time before they produced an actual PCB for others of equal stature to copy .

Its all down to visual looks now , if it looks nice it must sound nice and be technically perfect .
Wiring can be re-routed --just look at the advice given on DIY Audio -- move/re-route this or that wire even PCB computer designed circuits when when put into practical operation have the guy coming on and saying---"this should be perfect but its not --why ? " .

If there is any "magical art " in component and copper trace placement its entirely down to----experience.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2021, 09:36 AM   #1886
Gonethesame is offline Gonethesame  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: France
Randall Smith on Reproducing the Magic in 'The Pit' - YouTube
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2021, 10:27 AM   #1887
bucks bunny is offline bucks bunny  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonethesame View Post
With a lack of knowledge of evil pcb design this technique - known for decades now - must be accurate
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2021, 01:42 PM   #1888
johnego is offline johnego  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonethesame View Post
This should be posted on the "Sound Quality Vs. Measurements" thread...
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2021, 02:25 AM   #1889
TonyTecson is offline TonyTecson  Philippines
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
 
TonyTecson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Maybunga, Pasig City
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwags818 View Post
You are listening to the power supply. So I consider the entire power supply in the signal path.
i agree......wholeheartedly...
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2021, 03:37 AM   #1890
chris719 is offline chris719  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Connecticut
Best electrolytic capacitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan2 View Post
Quite right Peufeu its obvious those criticizing me for stating this have not spent many decades designing and building audio equipment long before it was made easier by virtualization and modern software .

They obviously never spent year after year reading on EW of well know audio design engineers amending their circuits due to layout and spent a very long time before they produced an actual PCB for others of equal stature to copy .

Its all down to visual looks now , if it looks nice it must sound nice and be technically perfect .
You appear to have absolutely no knowledge on electronic design after 1975. There are close to zero challenging designs that could be constructed by P2P techniques. I mean real-world challenging, not audio magazine circa 1980 challenging.

Last edited by chris719; 19th May 2021 at 03:40 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Best electrolytic capacitorsHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
reforming electrolytic capacitors AndrewT Parts 76 22nd March 2021 12:32 AM
Electrolytic vs polyprop capacitors Puggie Parts 7 27th November 2020 10:46 PM
Lots of NOS Electrolytic Capacitors! ungie Swap Meet 27 29th February 2012 02:38 AM
4 pole electrolytic capacitors AGGEMAM Pass Labs 7 22nd February 2010 01:58 PM
Electrolytic capacitors akis Parts 13 16th August 2009 05:13 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:44 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2021 diyAudio
Wiki