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Old 17th May 2021, 08:03 AM   #1871
duncan2 is offline duncan2  United Kingdom
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Scotland.
Unless you are prepared to put in a lot of design time designing a PCB component & tracks layout old school point to point wiring will always be superior .

Time after time what looks good on equipment tests and sounds good in a "lash-up " doesn't reproduce the same results when a "beautiful " layout of components and compromise PCB tracks are made .

Small compensation capacitors are required that weren't required when a hard wiring prototype is made this was always the case years ago but now its- click-a-key and "voila " -a ready virtual layout ---funny it usually requires adjusting even in this day & age .

When doing it in the real world young people learn more about to to position this or that component next to another or route a wire a different way -- that's called Practical learning in design layout as it goes the way of the Dodo due to either laziness or lack of layout knowledge.

As a consequence DIY Audio is filled with -- "well it worked and looked okay on my virtual audio software lash up why is it oscillating etc when I actually build it" ?

Nothing wrong with a modern app giving a helping hand but beware your software isn't an "audio god "
its -shock-horror its --fallible.
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Old 17th May 2021, 08:06 AM   #1872
Blitz is offline Blitz  Germany
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cologne, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwags818 View Post
You are listening to the power supply. So I consider the entire power supply in the signal path.
That is so true...I spend years to learn how much of a difference the PSUs of my tube amps make without changing the actual circuits...

I think Peter Daniel posted a link to an article of Jonathan Carr, the developer of Lyra Audio on the Super-Through...in that article Jonathan as well referred to his experience of using amorphous power transformers...(better than any R-xformer in his experience)

...which I tried as well (without knowing the article). But I agree with him: They are as audible as amorphous chokes, amorpous IT or OPT. Next chapter will be Power Xformer with a Nano core and OCC wire...

Last edited by Blitz; 17th May 2021 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 17th May 2021, 08:38 AM   #1873
sumotan is offline sumotan  Indonesia
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by peufeu View Post
Was it the same layout and did you keep pictures of both?
Unfortunately not. It's been like 20 yrs ago.
Now I've learn something new too, with P to P the gauge of the wires used on different locations affects the sound too. Sigh where is it going to end. LOL
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Old 17th May 2021, 08:44 AM   #1874
sumotan is offline sumotan  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwags818 View Post
You are listening to the power supply. So I consider the entire power supply in the signal path.
This is so so true. When ppl comment power supply is not in way they either have not build or experimented enough. For starters I never use Toroid after 1 test I made many years ago, they just don't sound as good as EI & now that its been dscovered that Toroids are wide band we have part of the answer. If possible I always try to get Split Bobbins type. Heard that R Cores are good too but have not tried it yet.
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Old 17th May 2021, 08:46 AM   #1875
Blitz is offline Blitz  Germany
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cologne, Germany
Yes, indeed (cable diameter)...do you know Rob's Blog ?

"For about 80% soundquality is determined by the optimal diameter of the core and not the choice in material."

DHTRob - Guidelines for optimizing sound qualities of tube amplifiers
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Old 17th May 2021, 08:46 AM   #1876
Zung is offline Zung  Switzerland
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For P2P wiring, nobody beats the late Kondo-San: that's some serious work of art.
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Zung; 17th May 2021 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 17th May 2021, 08:56 AM   #1877
peufeu is offline peufeu  France
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Location: Lyon, France
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan2 View Post
Unless you are prepared to put in a lot of design time designing a PCB component & tracks layout old school point to point wiring will always be superior.
4 layer costs 20 EURO now...
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Old 17th May 2021, 09:01 AM   #1878
Gonethesame is offline Gonethesame  France
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and each turets are themselves tiny caps added to the circuit ! good luck to stabilise something , especialy with today sharper componants , at time the "Magic" came from kind of combining luck!
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Old 17th May 2021, 09:36 AM   #1879
bucks bunny is offline bucks bunny  Germany
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With a lack of knowledge of accurate pcb design this technique - known for decades now - must be evil.
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Old 17th May 2021, 09:45 AM   #1880
Blitz is offline Blitz  Germany
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" from kind of combining luck! "

...or knowing which component does what to your sound...which is a lot of work A/B-testing with a lot time to invest...was it Kondo or Sakuma who said the ciercuit is not so important, but the knowledge of the materials you use is ?

But I like Nelson's PAss design philosophy...just use minimal amount of components...as few as possible as each does something to the sound.

Example: I dont have a resistor in my amps as I even could spot the sound of Texas Components Z-foil, let a lone Mills WW or AN Tantalum. They all eat up musical energy and the material used for them are not at the level of a OCC copper wire. Use tubes and IT (really good iron with Nano cores) which you can run without them. Than there are not a lot P2P left anyhow and I would not know for what I want to use a pcb....
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