Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Parts Where to get, and how to make the best bits. PCB's, caps, transformers, etc.

Best electrolytic capacitors
Best electrolytic capacitors
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 14th April 2019, 09:25 PM   #1311
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
You're right, what i've said about measurement not being enough is a bad assertion. What you say about measurement + listening makes sense towards what I wanted to express (but having myself no measurement skill). When I talked about biased instruments it was about hifi devices for such listenings and not measurement tools. My english is very basic.

I will add to the wife and kids also musicians.I mean whom don't care about hifi and i know some brands pay them for such tests.

Halas I also know some of them with several weddings and kids, also having dogs...and still having ego, so I'm not sure it's possible to measure ego with number of wife/kids.

Indeed there is a logic where measurement & good sound had to match when it comes to sell hifi gears for consumers. It's reassuring.

Maybe sometimes there is just a room for improvment (or not) in relation to taste/bias/own material/own hifi imrpovment, is only what I or some humbly wrote... and often & only talking about refurbishing not audio design from scratch. And also I noticed as some did some particular caps are given often close results. If one know how to measure that, I can't. Would like indeed to learn why caps having same ESR,ESL,inductance, capacitance & voltage and size give different result at ears. I would have said instead: "if it's measurable I or some don't know how... but also some techs don't know either as their gears mesuring good don't pass the listesing test".

One just want to help here with what they have, be it biased experience with no knowledge as you noticed. But the question of N. Pass is so open that it's easy to jump into the arena then being eaten by Lions. My mistake as I don't want to cheat anyone.

Certainly some mass consumers brands have not the dev budget to proceed extensive measurements and listening tests at the level you're talking about in the place you are working...(brand?) hence such threads.

As it's not about my ego at the end either, I would like to learn about what you talked about size caps and also what sota audio techi measure to know where a cap is ok and worthy of passing the listening test for the final go - no go decision.

Maybe a sticky on how to proceed will be good as there are often such caps questions from people that unknowledged but service-minded try to help ? Because the lions without teaching medecine is never that good. . It's maybe teached everywhere here but perhaps too puzzly cause people still ask about caps and good fellows still answer (I will not) with ardor. "Best lytic cap" asked like that is a fools trap and I'm not sure it was the goal.

cheers anatech.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 01:27 AM   #1312
johnego is offline johnego  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
I will add to the wife and kids also musicians.I mean whom don't care about hifi and i know some brands pay them for such tests.

No. Musicians are a lot more valuable than wife and kids. It takes lots of experience to have good listening skill. Wives and kids are only better in ability to hear existence of high frequencies, which is not important.


But if you have had an experience where your wife or kids told you that your system were better right after you changed something then you might want to think about this: When you are modding your system, you are in close distance with your system and everything sounds okay, you cannot easily hear differences. But when you are listening from a distance (like your wife and kids), the difference is bigger.



Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
Halas I also know some of them with several weddings and kids, also having dogs...and still having ego, so I'm not sure it's possible to measure ego with number of wife/kids.


Especially when your wife is more dominant than you are, you have to lower your ego or your married will come to an end. If you have kids, ending married is not an option because either the kids will need their mom or you will lose your kids.



Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post

I would have said instead: "if it's measurable I or some don't know how... but also some techs don't know either as their gears mesuring good don't pass the listesing test".

There are important things that we don't measure because we don't know 100% how measurements correlate with sound perception. But don't think that if you don't know then everyone else don't know either, that's typical of how low intelligent people think.



Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
what sota audio techi measure to know where a cap is ok and worthy of passing the listening test for the final go - no go decision.

Problem is, your sound system is far from perfect. Think: Your speaker has serious cone breakup at 10kHz; which one is better, a cap that will cause frequency response to roll-off at 8kHz or a cap that will roll-off at 20kHz? Theoretically you want the latter but what people will hear is that the former is better sounding.


That's the problem with the typical 'audiophile' upgrade, a waste of time. Just stick with caps (and how it is used) which are popular among those who you believe knowledgeable (if this cap has issues with your ears, then believe that your system has other much bigger issues to solve).
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 01:56 AM   #1313
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
diyAudio Moderator
 
anatech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Georgetown, On
Best electrolytic capacitors
Hi diyiggy,
The best thing to do is learn by reading posts and consider what has been said. There will be some self study involved in order to figure out what makes sense and what doesn't.

One thing to be aware of is that audio use doesn't matter to most manufacturers of components. This market isn't even close to being enough to support a manufacturing effort. Other industries are the driving force for the components we have. The need for signal conditioning and stability produces some amplifiers that are far better than what we listen to, certainly more reliable. For these, there is real money on the line, so something that doesn't operate well simply isn't tolerated. It can cost lives as well in industrial settings and medical equipment. Test and measurement is another high quality driver of the art. So, listen to those who are experienced with electronics and signal processing in industry. Audio entertainment is just an interest and a hobby for those who design or build nice reproduction systems. As for tube electronics, it it wasn't for musicians, we would only see transmitting and special use tubes today. Audio simply does not generate enough cash to be of much interest to component manufacturers.

Now, what does that say about good quality capacitors? Most good brands will do an equivalent job in the circuit where they are used. Capacitor types matter, not the brand name printed on the part.

-Chris
__________________
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" my Wife
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 07:18 AM   #1314
sumotan is offline sumotan  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Hi Chris
You are about the handful of technicians who cares about sound quality.
My remarks are true of the technicians that I've met.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 07:42 AM   #1315
dreamth is online now dreamth  Romania
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Piatra Neamt, Romania
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnego View Post
Wives and kids are only better in ability to hear existence of high frequencies, which is not important.
Not really...They are also able to hear 2...4 times softer sounds in all audio range which is a lot!Especially girls!Boys start to loose their hearing at an early age due to testosteron. On the other hand, women are much more able to process audio information than men...
The simple reason that most women aren't into audio is because almost all our best audio equipment sounds like crap to them!They obviously prefer the live sessions to recordings.Of course they also like socializing...but it's clear from many studies that they hear much better than us in all audio range.

Last edited by dreamth; 15th April 2019 at 08:01 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 07:59 AM   #1316
dreamth is online now dreamth  Romania
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Piatra Neamt, Romania
Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
So, listen to those who are experienced with electronics and signal processing in industry. ...Most good brands will do an equivalent job in the circuit where they are used. Capacitor types matter, not the brand name printed on the part.
Chris
A decade ago i started to see some similarities between all sorts of Elna capacitors.In the end i realized those letters written on the industrial capacitors must mean a lot.Ther was a particular series of Elna which had three different letters, each in a cut circle, S,U and T or R , i think ...Most of the capacitors would have only one letter on it.S is for signal i think, U were for high frequency, the third letter was for normal low freq ripple i think...They were the best for both high and low freq filtering, were used in place of some famous blue Rubycons (which again were used in everything(high freq, signal, low freq, decoupling, coupling...you name it),biggest in size and weight and very similar to the Elna for audio or the silmics they also perform similarly over time, i mean they use to dry quite soon compared to the low freq specd elnas...I honestly think that Elna for audio or the Silmics were just rebranded industrial capacitors.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 10:49 AM   #1317
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnego View Post
But don't think that if you don't know then everyone else don't know either, that's typical of how low intelligent people think.
.

This is not what I wrote, I just wrote I don't know and ask anatech to drop some tips to learn. I do think people not able to read and give to others words they had not is how low intelligent people think as the moralists either


And at the end people who think to learn life to others are often full of ego while being less inteligent.


Btw I didn't attack anatech and I don't think he is thinking that. At the opposit I have a lot of respect for the valuable people like him here.


That said, thanks for the tip, I think I will be able to manage family without your advices and I'm sorry for that but as you judged me I had to answer.



I believe if we stay on caps subject it will be more usefull instead personal attack. There is no doubt it's a good enough subject because people seems to experiment sometimes a simple non important cap affects things and also every tech seems no to know about art of measurement cause many hifi gears sound not so good...


best regards
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 11:20 AM   #1318
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Default Yes there is no audio caps, so true!

Thanks anatech, but saying I'm on the wrong way and I have to believe you (what I do)...I still don't understand why 2 close capacitor give not the same sounding result. I know it's very complicated, but is there a beginning of a path to know what parameter(s) is the most important at measurement to evaluate this change ? I read the basic about caps, some papers like Batemans and yes i'm sure it's not enough of course.


Is it something to measure in the audio range as the difference is heard ? Is it about specs of the whole area and circuit : noise, THD, etc ?
Is it more about ESL or inductance or ESR ?
A mix of that and more but where to start ? (not to understand the art of audiodesign but just the parameters involved the most in the capacitors change perception by humans)


Thanks for your help, but maybe off topic here and deserve a thread or a sticky ?


Anyway, thank you anatech to spend some time for the audio enthusiasts here

Last edited by diyiggy; 15th April 2019 at 11:24 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 11:33 AM   #1319
johnego is offline johnego  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
This is not what I wrote, I just wrote I don't know and ask anatech to drop some tips to learn. I do think people not able to read and give to others words they had not is how low intelligent people think as the moralists either
Sorry, i didn't attack you. Its a language thing. I don't think that you are the same with the typical i mentioned. It was an advice, not to fall into the trap of thinking that if you can't then nobody can't. This attitude will limit your achievement in learning.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th April 2019, 11:34 AM   #1320
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
no problems John.

Have a good day
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Best electrolytic capacitorsHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
reforming electrolytic capacitors AndrewT Parts 64 21st May 2018 10:15 PM
Lots of NOS Electrolytic Capacitors! ungie Swap Meet 27 29th February 2012 02:38 AM
4 pole electrolytic capacitors AGGEMAM Pass Labs 7 22nd February 2010 01:58 PM
Electrolytic capacitors akis Parts 13 16th August 2009 05:13 PM
Electrolytic vs polyprop capacitors Puggie Parts 2 15th September 2005 12:32 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:37 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki