Hello everyone. Just curious if anyone has tried the new solid electrolitic caps for audio applications-ie preamps,cd players or amps & how they compare to the audio grade lytics such as elna and nichicon muse. These are the new caps that most of the manufacturers are putting in motherboards on computers now because to their much longer lifespan and better frequency characteristics. I looked some up on digokey or mouser one & they were expensive & didn't have very high voltage..
they are great caps. solid/organic such as OS-CON
low ESR, high ripple current, high reliability...
We are using some at my work now. (non audio)
I recently bought a few small ones, but have not tried them out yet in anything.
They *should* work well and sound good in place of most electrolytics (since they will typically be lower ESR) if you can get them in suitable ratings. They are as you said, mostly small, low V.
-CK
low ESR, high ripple current, high reliability...
We are using some at my work now. (non audio)
I recently bought a few small ones, but have not tried them out yet in anything.
They *should* work well and sound good in place of most electrolytics (since they will typically be lower ESR) if you can get them in suitable ratings. They are as you said, mostly small, low V.
-CK
Hi all
After a fast googling, I quote from this site:
The key and surprising difference is electron conduction (solid electrolytic capacitor) versus ionic conduction (liquid electrolytic capacitor).
God is dead, Marx is dead, Gold (see Golden Boys) gets corroded and now electron conduction within a capacitor dielectric!
Nowhere to stand. Where are we heading as a society?
oscon
Regards
George
After a fast googling, I quote from this site:
The key and surprising difference is electron conduction (solid electrolytic capacitor) versus ionic conduction (liquid electrolytic capacitor).
God is dead, Marx is dead, Gold (see Golden Boys) gets corroded and now electron conduction within a capacitor dielectric!
Nowhere to stand. Where are we heading as a society?
oscon
Regards
George
"I recently bought a few small ones, but have not tried them out yet in anything."
Please let me know when if you try these out I am considering refurbishing my older audio equipment at some time & would require alot of caps. Also does anyone know the specicific characteristics or specs you look for in an audio grade cap. I have heard that most comp grade has low esr but doesn't sound quite as good as audio grade in high end stuff.
Here are a couple of specs but I don't know how to deciper them.:
Nichicom KW audio series 330uf 16v
Tan=.20
Leakage current =3uA
Ripple current= 256mA
No esr data
Nichicon LG Conductive Polymer 330uf16v(solid type)
Tan=.08
Leakage current= 1056uA
Ripple current=4700mA
ESR 13mohms
Please let me know when if you try these out I am considering refurbishing my older audio equipment at some time & would require alot of caps. Also does anyone know the specicific characteristics or specs you look for in an audio grade cap. I have heard that most comp grade has low esr but doesn't sound quite as good as audio grade in high end stuff.
Here are a couple of specs but I don't know how to deciper them.:
Nichicom KW audio series 330uf 16v
Tan=.20
Leakage current =3uA
Ripple current= 256mA
No esr data
Nichicon LG Conductive Polymer 330uf16v(solid type)
Tan=.08
Leakage current= 1056uA
Ripple current=4700mA
ESR 13mohms
gto127 said:
That's tan theta (tan ð) it says much more than ESR
see here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131339
or here:
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes...s/BasicConsiderations/BasicConsiderations.htm
or google for others. In the first cap the ESR is probably not so good that they bother to mention it independently. You can use tan theta to calculate it though. (the ripple current rating gives a big clue as well)
-Chris
I've just tried Sanyo OS-CON SA/SC in my little headphone amp. I use them to sink the return currents from the phones, so I regard them as being inside the audio path. Compared to Sanyo and Panasonic wet electrolytics, I find the OS-CON's clearer, without the typical grainy sound. I'm not sure about my findings, so I'm awaiting more reviews of them. I've read a lot of times they're no good for audio, and most people seem to use them in digital applications.
I'd like to try Sanyo SP. They have a lower tan. I've ordered a couple of SVP's and they seem to be of another construction - organic polymer instead of complex salt as in the radial caps.
I'd like to try Sanyo SP. They have a lower tan. I've ordered a couple of SVP's and they seem to be of another construction - organic polymer instead of complex salt as in the radial caps.
I think I'm going to try one in the output stage of a Nakamichi CD Player 1. (The output coupling cap). 100uf@16V. I will let everyone know how it sounds. Just from the responses so far I would think the polymer type would be best. Is there a brand or line within a brand that would be the best version to get?
Sanyo SP-series seem to be of a higher quality than SA/SC. The surface mount version SVP is of another construction. I hope I get them today, and I'll keep you updated on how they perform. I'm almost sure those SA/SC ones I'm using are a major improvemet vs the wet electrolytics.gto127 said:
These capacitors are for switching-mode low-voltage high-current power conversion. The high leakage current makes them unsuitable for AC coupling in audio. The low ESR makes them unsuitable for supply decoupling too, since audio PCB layouts are very inductive leading to strong resonance as soon as they are paralleled with any other capacitor (and most people will do so).
Would the coupling characteristics directly in the audio path hurt the sound quality or would they make the circuit unstable? Also I was just working on a Krell Home theatre standard & noticed there was no audio grade caps in the discrete output stage. They were all 105 degree caps which are mostly used in computers. These caps tend to be low esr. Could it be that this circuit was designed for low esr caps and that some circuits that have higher esr caps shold not use lower ones?
gto127 said:
Yeah they can make the circuit unstable (NFB loop). I have put OSCONs in some old power Mosfet amplifiers and experienced oscillation and problems too in digital circuits. Remember you could be replacing "general purpose types" caps in some designs from 10-15 years ago with caps with very different frequency/ESR/ESL characteristics. Lower Z upto higher frequency's etc. They can also draw lots of current on power up etc. As someone pointed out before the leakage problems may not be desirable in the NFB loop or for coupling.
They are less forgiving capacitors in my experience than black gates just due to there characteristics (and the problems they can cause or the circuit design/PCB may need re-optimized to use them to there best) quite distinct from the "sound quality". - people confuse the two of course. The only Black Gates worth going for IMO are the NX's, large FK smoothers (for power amps) or the Wkz types for valve amps. The Super E cap so called "L cancelling pair" has been largely dismissed as bunkem (it was by electronic engineers in a company I used to work for in the mid/late 90's).
They lie alot Black Gate Japan I've found out in my experience -Why don't they release esr/ripple current and leakage specs of there caps or perhaps it's alittle bit too revealing!
Cyril Bateman in EW&W magazine showed two non polarised electro caps in series compare with some film types in the distortion specs. (hence the performance of the Super E cap) I think this is with a dc bias of some voltage.
I remember contacting black gate japan via fax I think to get esr/ripple ratings of the large FK smoother types and they told me to use something else if I don't want to use them. - I couldn't beleive it. I contacted Rubycon (on a different occasion) and they said they had not been manufactured in 5 years back in '97 or '98.
I refuse to use there products from that point onwards. As me skills at electronics have got better I can use polyprops or no caps etc in designs etc.
poynton said:
Makes no sense to me. The best electrolytics around for noise attenuating or filtering is panasonic's 4 terminal SP cap (surface mount). Hard to get hold of. Knew of these in '93 or '95. These can easily beat the OSCONs in nearly all specs. (they show graphs comparing them) or there own 2 terminal surface SP mount types caps.
PS. It is becoming common to use partial speciality polymer in the caps - the anode or cathode or something like that (I am no cap designer and can't remember the details). I haven't read up on them lately. I suspect the OSCONs are that and not full speciality polymers. (lose the full benefit). It's also the 4 terminal SM construction that makes a big difference in pushing the performance up a level. PCB design is critical also.
Notice I never said anything about sound quality/AC specs or THD - Any standard bipolar would probably beat these caps of course on those specs. AC wise. If the cap has a lower Z than the Source Z and there is AC signals then the black gate NX would sound better.
Regards
Kevin
gpapag said:
Actually I beleive the black gates are electron conductive also. That is why the NX being bipolar still appeals to me.
Forgot to mention that I was only trying to get ripple current ratings for the caps to see if they can supply the power amp output stage or if I would need a few of them. Again this was back in the late 90's.
Regards
Kevin
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