Hi Bud, All,
A night or two back a couple of friends and I tried your tweak on the negative output terminal for each channel of the power amp. We used 7 strands per loop of 28 ga copper magnet wire with 3 pieces of hetashrink addes as per your suggestions.
Neither friend was familiar with this thread and were, shall we say skeptical? Anyway the damned things work and the increase in resolutuion of recorded ambience, the decay of notes and the like was readily apparent and the system sounded worse when removed.
We then tried substituting a length of old approx 14 ga speaker cable with what appeared to be PVC insulation for the litz loops. Now this was even more remarkable in that it wrecked the sound of the system completely, plumping up and muddying the bass just for starters.
If you want to demonstrate that the loops have an effect of some kind can I suggest you demonstrate how bad this type of loop can make a good sytem sound?
Now on to experiments in different parts of the system and using finer and more strand of litz...
Regards,
Rob.
Rob.
A night or two back a couple of friends and I tried your tweak on the negative output terminal for each channel of the power amp. We used 7 strands per loop of 28 ga copper magnet wire with 3 pieces of hetashrink addes as per your suggestions.
Neither friend was familiar with this thread and were, shall we say skeptical? Anyway the damned things work and the increase in resolutuion of recorded ambience, the decay of notes and the like was readily apparent and the system sounded worse when removed.
We then tried substituting a length of old approx 14 ga speaker cable with what appeared to be PVC insulation for the litz loops. Now this was even more remarkable in that it wrecked the sound of the system completely, plumping up and muddying the bass just for starters.
If you want to demonstrate that the loops have an effect of some kind can I suggest you demonstrate how bad this type of loop can make a good sytem sound?
Now on to experiments in different parts of the system and using finer and more strand of litz...
Regards,
Rob.
Rob.
Hi Rob,
Too much dielectric is a problem, even with the 140 strands of #40 I use (because I can) from our transformer business. I make no claim that this is the best or only wire to use and it is good that you are experimenting with many fewer pieces.
When I asked the question of those who lurk here from the real world of physics, the remark was that the Litz wire will shield the internal wires from capacitive effects. Looks as though you are proving this out.
Don't hesitate to put some on your small signal devices, like phono cartridge ground side. Just plan on using 1/2 as much dielectric or less. Works on Tape Heads too, with the same amount needed there as well.
Too much dielectric always ends up sounding thick and overblown whereas, just enough sounds natural, but there is color everywhere you would expect it, from a live performance.
Please keep reporting your success's and failures, we will all learn from them.
Bud
Too much dielectric is a problem, even with the 140 strands of #40 I use (because I can) from our transformer business. I make no claim that this is the best or only wire to use and it is good that you are experimenting with many fewer pieces.
When I asked the question of those who lurk here from the real world of physics, the remark was that the Litz wire will shield the internal wires from capacitive effects. Looks as though you are proving this out.
Don't hesitate to put some on your small signal devices, like phono cartridge ground side. Just plan on using 1/2 as much dielectric or less. Works on Tape Heads too, with the same amount needed there as well.
Too much dielectric always ends up sounding thick and overblown whereas, just enough sounds natural, but there is color everywhere you would expect it, from a live performance.
Please keep reporting your success's and failures, we will all learn from them.
Bud
beau2317,
Really, I do not know what cause/effect scenario is at play. It is certainly an unusual thought that they may be some form of nano capacitance, sheet charge effect, electron accumulator. How they might be an antenna, when hung out on a loudspeaker is also a bit difficult to understand.
That this might be their working mode does make more sense once we get inside of the equipment box, but why a loop of wire with some small pieces of polypropylene distributed along it would be a useful expression while pieces of wire with a continuous dielectric would be unacceptably rude sounding, when mounted on the outside of an amplifier, is not real obvious.
As before, I will be happy to provide a couple of loops, made to hook up to a speaker terminal ground, at the input terminal, to any EE/physics/blind test devote that wants to disprove or even perhaps explore this odd, below signal return, phenomena.
That this might happen at the upcoming BC audio fest is a hope of mine. Certainly the speakers involved will be up to the task as they have a pair of EnABL'd Fostex 127 E's that have lost their peaky behavior and gained about 3 times the resolution found in the standard driver. This according to Planet 10.
There will also be a set of speaker cables whose dielectric scheme is based upon this discovery and a pair of interconnects to boot. I am not sure what kind of "blind" this group will be experiencing, but some sort of test should occur.
Bud
Really, I do not know what cause/effect scenario is at play. It is certainly an unusual thought that they may be some form of nano capacitance, sheet charge effect, electron accumulator. How they might be an antenna, when hung out on a loudspeaker is also a bit difficult to understand.
That this might be their working mode does make more sense once we get inside of the equipment box, but why a loop of wire with some small pieces of polypropylene distributed along it would be a useful expression while pieces of wire with a continuous dielectric would be unacceptably rude sounding, when mounted on the outside of an amplifier, is not real obvious.
As before, I will be happy to provide a couple of loops, made to hook up to a speaker terminal ground, at the input terminal, to any EE/physics/blind test devote that wants to disprove or even perhaps explore this odd, below signal return, phenomena.
That this might happen at the upcoming BC audio fest is a hope of mine. Certainly the speakers involved will be up to the task as they have a pair of EnABL'd Fostex 127 E's that have lost their peaky behavior and gained about 3 times the resolution found in the standard driver. This according to Planet 10.
There will also be a set of speaker cables whose dielectric scheme is based upon this discovery and a pair of interconnects to boot. I am not sure what kind of "blind" this group will be experiencing, but some sort of test should occur.
Bud
Beau,
I doubt rf is the explanation in that position if only for the reason that in that application there was already at least 3 metres of speaker cable connected into that node acting as an aerial already.
Oh BTW what did you HEAR? I understand you have heard the system I tried it in yesterday with and without the loop:-?
Regards,
Rob.
I doubt rf is the explanation in that position if only for the reason that in that application there was already at least 3 metres of speaker cable connected into that node acting as an aerial already.
Oh BTW what did you HEAR? I understand you have heard the system I tried it in yesterday with and without the loop:-?
Regards,
Rob.
Yes I did hear an improvement on that system. I then went home and made up some litz wire loops as per spec, using some cardas litz wire I had lying about. It made a difference (according to my golden eared wife) but she thought it was not a positive change. I was less sure about whether there was a difference.
More experimentation to follow. Intrigued.
More experimentation to follow. Intrigued.
Beau,
Interesting about the results in your own system. Was the Cardas
inside an outer teflon sleeve with inner varying gauges of polyurethane coated wire as it is normally sold or was it the raw wire itself? If the former I would expect it to sound worse from my limited experience.
I have now tried loops comprising 6 individually cotton covered 28 ga silver litz solid core with 3 short lengths of heatshrink binding the bundle together on two different systems at home and here at work. The stuff was left over from another project. There was more of an improvement in the system here at work than I heard at Roy's place and at least as much of an improvement at home. So all positive so far other than the loop of old speaker cable.
Rob.
Interesting about the results in your own system. Was the Cardas
inside an outer teflon sleeve with inner varying gauges of polyurethane coated wire as it is normally sold or was it the raw wire itself? If the former I would expect it to sound worse from my limited experience.
I have now tried loops comprising 6 individually cotton covered 28 ga silver litz solid core with 3 short lengths of heatshrink binding the bundle together on two different systems at home and here at work. The stuff was left over from another project. There was more of an improvement in the system here at work than I heard at Roy's place and at least as much of an improvement at home. So all positive so far other than the loop of old speaker cable.
Rob.
Rob and beau,
You guys should definitely experiment with too much dielectric too. This does deaden color and make transients seem bloated. If you use it on a MC cartridge or tape head, cut the dielectric in half and then be prepared to do more cutting.
For those of you who are electric guitar players, using a ground to ground short Litz piece, with one piece of 6mm shrink tube, from pick up to pick up and then to pot ground will do amazing things to your tone, response and feel.
Mostly just have fun with this, and don't neglect the ground of your cheap red book CD player.
Bud
You guys should definitely experiment with too much dielectric too. This does deaden color and make transients seem bloated. If you use it on a MC cartridge or tape head, cut the dielectric in half and then be prepared to do more cutting.
For those of you who are electric guitar players, using a ground to ground short Litz piece, with one piece of 6mm shrink tube, from pick up to pick up and then to pot ground will do amazing things to your tone, response and feel.
Mostly just have fun with this, and don't neglect the ground of your cheap red book CD player.
Bud
Zen Mod said:
Good of you to have his back against my merciless onslaught.
"The medicine peddlers used a number of tricks and stunts. The larger traveling shows, employing advance men to herald their arrival, entered town with circus-like fanfare, typically with a band leading the procession of wagons."
MJL21193
Yes, my primary reason for posting all of the how to and asking respectable EE's and physics masters what might cause this phenomena, has been so I can sell billions and billions of dollars worth to unsuspecting housewives and their husbands.
So far, most of what I have received from this camp of acknowledged experts is rudeness and an eagerness to stuff words into my mouth, while looking for vile purpose.
I don't do marketing, I am not your enemy.
Bud
Yes, my primary reason for posting all of the how to and asking respectable EE's and physics masters what might cause this phenomena, has been so I can sell billions and billions of dollars worth to unsuspecting housewives and their husbands.
So far, most of what I have received from this camp of acknowledged experts is rudeness and an eagerness to stuff words into my mouth, while looking for vile purpose.
I don't do marketing, I am not your enemy.
Bud
BudP said:
Hi Bud,
I'm in the pragmatist camp. I'm neither EE or physics master, just an individual endowed with some common sense.
I have been trying to maintain a straight face reading through this thread, but it has been a challenge.
If this item were to perform as you say, why haven't the real snake oil marketeers (high end cables/interconnects) clued in? There's real value here in the right hands.
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