Very beginning:
4 G subs loaded with RCF L18P300
2 Mackie SRM550
Upgrades:
Either addition of 3 Cubo Kick 15 loaded with Kappa Pro 15A
OR
2 G subs become kick bins, drivers from the other 2 G subs are used in 4 Paraflex C2E 1x18"
The G subs are a very simple build with decent output, with 8 of them lined up will be sure to provide the sub and kick to begin with.
The Mackie SRM550 are a bit more budget friendly high output mid top that should last for a decent while, while having good clarity.
Deciding how to upgrade will most likely depend on budget/what the future of the system would become. If it stays more local and smaller, the Cubo Kick will be the go to upgrade (as it stands right now) and if the soundsystem will see bigger venues and bigger events then the paraflex will be eventual upgrade.
Will mostly be used at the start for upto around 200 person gigs outdoors, and upto around 300 indoors, focussed mostly on jungle and drum and bass.
Any feedback on anything within here would be helpful. Recommendations for alternative designs for subs or alternative tops would be appreciated
4 G subs loaded with RCF L18P300
2 Mackie SRM550
Upgrades:
Either addition of 3 Cubo Kick 15 loaded with Kappa Pro 15A
OR
2 G subs become kick bins, drivers from the other 2 G subs are used in 4 Paraflex C2E 1x18"
The G subs are a very simple build with decent output, with 8 of them lined up will be sure to provide the sub and kick to begin with.
The Mackie SRM550 are a bit more budget friendly high output mid top that should last for a decent while, while having good clarity.
Deciding how to upgrade will most likely depend on budget/what the future of the system would become. If it stays more local and smaller, the Cubo Kick will be the go to upgrade (as it stands right now) and if the soundsystem will see bigger venues and bigger events then the paraflex will be eventual upgrade.
Will mostly be used at the start for upto around 200 person gigs outdoors, and upto around 300 indoors, focussed mostly on jungle and drum and bass.
Any feedback on anything within here would be helpful. Recommendations for alternative designs for subs or alternative tops would be appreciated
I would use horn subs for drum and bass as tracks don't have much going on below 50Hz and maximum output is important. In the UK a mono stack of 6 punisher horns would be normal. I'm also a bit skeptical the SRM550 won't just be constantly limiting, you seem to get a lot of speaker for the money but fundamentally output is constrained to that of a direct radiating 12" driver. A couple of orbit 4's would be a budget choice (but at considerably more cost than the SRM550): Soundgear - Speakers - Amplifiers - DSP
Worth pointing out as well that if you where planning on going stereo then instead going mono saves money in amp channels maximizes bass output and evenness in an outdoor environment. Something like a powersoft K20 can handle the subs and the midbass with only a smaller amp required for the mid/tweeter.
Haven't purchased anything yet, but for around $1000 NZD per mid/top they seem to be the best option for an active top.
Tapped horn subs we're my original choice (don't remember what model) but the cost of the extra wood required for the cab made it more expensive than the 2 sheets of plywood and 2 drivers needed for the G sub.
The orbit 4's are super cool but difficult to get in NZ without paying stupid shipping prices. For mid tops in NZ it seems that unless you're building lots of cabs to daisy chain off a couple strong amps it's just not worth the price to go passive. Any active mid tops you can recommend?
Bass reflex will work but horn subs have a number of advantages:
*higher sensitivity, this means less amplifier for a given output, ultimately you run out of generator/site power.
*no port compression, most bass reflex have insufficient port area
*possibility of using an undersized mouth and then using in multiples to reduce low corner frequency
*no grills (look up how expensive perforated metal is, also rattles are annoying)
They also have disadvantages like large size and heat build up in the rear chamber. Tapped horns I would consider to be an extreme case of a 6th order bandpass box as they are not horns in a conventional sense.
I don't have any personal experience of the SRM550 but the voice coil diameters are listed as: 2.6" and 1". This indicates low cost drivers with poor power handing, the crossover is also listed as a very high 3kHz which will result in a poor polar response: https://mackie.com/sites/default/files/PRODUCT RESOURCES/SPECS/Spec_Sheets/SRM550_650_750_SS.pdf
If you instead went with a single RCF ART 945-A you get an overall much higher quality speaker with high end drivers:
https://www.rcf.it/c/document_libra...a5d-0f3f-4c4d-9567-0e9524d40689&groupId=20195
The main weakness of the RCF will be narrowing dispersion above 10kHz but at high SPL high frequencies are masked anyway so this will be much less of a compromise than it appears.
*higher sensitivity, this means less amplifier for a given output, ultimately you run out of generator/site power.
*no port compression, most bass reflex have insufficient port area
*possibility of using an undersized mouth and then using in multiples to reduce low corner frequency
*no grills (look up how expensive perforated metal is, also rattles are annoying)
They also have disadvantages like large size and heat build up in the rear chamber. Tapped horns I would consider to be an extreme case of a 6th order bandpass box as they are not horns in a conventional sense.
I don't have any personal experience of the SRM550 but the voice coil diameters are listed as: 2.6" and 1". This indicates low cost drivers with poor power handing, the crossover is also listed as a very high 3kHz which will result in a poor polar response: https://mackie.com/sites/default/files/PRODUCT RESOURCES/SPECS/Spec_Sheets/SRM550_650_750_SS.pdf
If you instead went with a single RCF ART 945-A you get an overall much higher quality speaker with high end drivers:
https://www.rcf.it/c/document_libra...a5d-0f3f-4c4d-9567-0e9524d40689&groupId=20195
The main weakness of the RCF will be narrowing dispersion above 10kHz but at high SPL high frequencies are masked anyway so this will be much less of a compromise than it appears.
All very useful advice
The RCF ART 945-A is over twice as expensive as the SRM550 before shipping, so not sure if I'll be able to go for it straight away unfortunately, but what about 2 of these ones (https://www.altoprofessional.com/downloads/black/spec-sheets/Black12_RevB_Specsheet_LR.pdf)??
The RCF ART 945-A is over twice as expensive as the SRM550 before shipping, so not sure if I'll be able to go for it straight away unfortunately, but what about 2 of these ones (https://www.altoprofessional.com/downloads/black/spec-sheets/Black12_RevB_Specsheet_LR.pdf)??
The Alto looks much better quality than the SRM550 on paper, they are also supplying much more complete data which all looks fine. Published response is quite flat fitting within a 5dB window. Vertical polars are not great at the crossover ~1.5kHz but this will be the case for all conventional two way designs, just make sure they are aimed correctly. When using two in a mono stack make sure they are splayed correctly, this is unlikely to be the angle of the box side walls!
What powered speaker brands do you have access to. Those Mackies fail on all the points one desires in a powered speaker, they don't sound very good.. there is a weird phasy thing going on, they don't get as loud as the specs suggest, and they are not reliable. The ALTO TS3 series actually have a better reputation but it's anybodys guess if they will keep up with the rest of the system you are putting together. To be reliable with a relentless hard driving music genre like this all the speakers have to be able to operate comfortably below maximum output.. they won't survive if they have to be pushed to the ragged edge of thier capability.
It's less about what brands are supplied here and more about which models the stores choose to buy stock for. The brand that does seem to have its feelers everywhere is behringer, but as far as I know they aren't that good. I'll link to what I figure to be the main suppliers of higher end P.A gear if you were interested:
Powered Speakers | Speakers & P.A. | Live Sound | Music & Audio
Active
Worst case scenario is that the speakers I choose now don't run loud enough, and can become booth monitors.
Powered Speakers | Speakers & P.A. | Live Sound | Music & Audio
Active
Worst case scenario is that the speakers I choose now don't run loud enough, and can become booth monitors.
Wow.. the NA brands are expen$ive over there aren't they, EV ZLX12p's cost me $400/ea Ca$ when I bought them.
Do you have a used market in old PA gear? Some old JBL SR boxes or similar would be much better suited, they are big, heavy, and probably pretty ugly by now but they came with very heavy duty drivers which is most of the battle.
Do you have a used market in old PA gear? Some old JBL SR boxes or similar would be much better suited, they are big, heavy, and probably pretty ugly by now but they came with very heavy duty drivers which is most of the battle.
The odd bit of used P.A gear comes up on Facebook every so often but they are snatched up pretty quickly. Most of what you see being sold is like empty scoop bins built at least 2 decades ago or single 18 bass reflex subs for maybe $100 NZD under retail, with a caption like "5 years old, used at least twice a week, selling because upgrading, sounds a bit distorted if too loud." Anything worth buying is often just sold to the friends of the people who owned it privately, otherwise they use the speakers until they no longer go.
I've been trying to look for suitable drivers for your needs, it seems there's a whole lot of lemons down there.
Expensive too.
Found this really amusing 18" sub, brags about integrated amp with 250+250w for the tops and 500w for the sub. All this while drawing a whooping 100VA from the mains! Gotta love that PMPO.
Expensive too.
Found this really amusing 18" sub, brags about integrated amp with 250+250w for the tops and 500w for the sub. All this while drawing a whooping 100VA from the mains!
Gotta love that PMPO.Attachments
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There's delays on everything right now but can get RCF drivers in New Zealand from Rubber Monkey NZ - Video Cameras, Photography, Pelican Cases & More it's a bit pricey but it means you don't have to deal with customs on large and expensive orders or ridiculous shipping costs or times. Another option for drivers for me is Professional Audio Sales, Services & Audio Cable - Livesound but the price on a lot of them is stupid high.
For the same price as the DBR12 I could also get the RCF ART 912-A which I believe will be better, just have to wait a couple months before RCF have enough stock for New Zealand.
For the same price as the DBR12 I could also get the RCF ART 912-A which I believe will be better, just have to wait a couple months before RCF have enough stock for New Zealand.
I'm not sure either of them are significantly better than the other, but:
I see the RCF ART 912-A is "Availability on Request"
While the Yamaha DBR12 is currently "Available from supplier Usually ships in 2 - 3 working days".
Yamaha promises 465W continuous and the RCF mentions ability to produce 1050W RMS but it seems like a very theoretical number and presentation to me.
The Yamaha is a little bit lighter, other than that I'm really not sure which would be better. ART 912-A seems to have slightly more "rounded" figures and perhaps inflate the wattage a little bit, though I could be wrong. Personally I suspect it's a toss which one of those would win a Soundsystem Battle.
Go with whatever makes you happy.
I see the RCF ART 912-A is "Availability on Request"
While the Yamaha DBR12 is currently "Available from supplier Usually ships in 2 - 3 working days".
Yamaha promises 465W continuous and the RCF mentions ability to produce 1050W RMS but it seems like a very theoretical number and presentation to me.
The Yamaha is a little bit lighter, other than that I'm really not sure which would be better. ART 912-A seems to have slightly more "rounded" figures and perhaps inflate the wattage a little bit, though I could be wrong. Personally I suspect it's a toss which one of those would win a Soundsystem Battle.
Go with whatever makes you happy.
I have to respectfully disagree about the low frequency content cut off. In fact, I would counter argue that a lot of systems working in that sector of music end up struggling because they can’t reproduce the lower notes (the ‘roll’) while also having sufficient headroom to handle the kick transients at the high tempo.
An undersized horn length or mouth area will make that worse, due to the lack of loading and the resulting heat build up. A dual 18” reflex with a large, flared port and the best quality drivers that you can afford is always a good starting point for a new system owner, because they benefit from being able to see/hear/smell when it is at it’s limit, and the scaling of a system is more ‘intuitive’.
If the goal is maximum bang for buck, then bandpass systems like the Eighteen Sound reference designs are also a very good place to start. Classic bandpass got a bad reputation, but I think that is unwarranted with modern drivers and optimised enclosures. The SKhorn and Skram/MAUL are good alternatives.
The full range or mains also need to have a lot of dynamics range. I don’t think the Mackie will be suitable, and would suggest sticking to passive boxes. Some second hand pro audio boxes can be had for seriously cheap in Europe, things like Martin Audio H3 sometimes sell for £500-600 a box which is very hard to beat.
Get a couple of decent four channel amplifiers like T604 as soon as you can afford them, and you’re laughing for a DIY system.
Edit: just spotted your location. Check out Tubs Audio; they're local and doing some interesting stuff. Perhaps a bit beyond the budget, but you never know. They sell FFA amplifiers and DSP down that way, and import the usual Italian brand drivers for their boxes.