Hello friends
We are on a quest to find the best solution for new hifi nightclub soundsystem. Chatting with off-the-shelf PA makers has been a bit disappointing, so figured I'd put out a call for help. I've read through many other threads, but none exactly matched our requirements.
A bit about the project:
New Brooklyn venue, focusing on Electronic Dance Music (nothing live).
The space is total about 15,000sf, with 5000sf of that being the dancefloor. We certainly need enough bass and subbass to move people's bodies, but we don't want to sacrifice warmth and intelligibility in the mids and highs. We also want to minimize signal processing, so ideally use only Drivers, HiFi Amps, and Crossovers. This is a nightclub, so extended listener comfort is more important than precision source reproduction.
Our best idea so far involves using about 20 Class AB amplifiers (1000-2000W each) to push 2-4 drivers each. Run the system around 50% load to keep ample headroom. We didnt select speakers yet, but imagining something like a Classic 4-point Dance Stacks (one in each corner of the room). Each point would have something like 2x 21", 2x 12", 4x 8" and some tweeters. These Dance Stacks could be a combination of smaller off-the-shelf speakers, or a completely custom selection of drivers and custom built cabinets.
Though we do not have extensive speaker-design knowledge, our team is sufficiently technical to fabricate high quality speaker boxes and assemble electronic components if that's what it takes.
We are open to any and all of the craziest ideas, so if you're itching to design a set of 50' exponential horns please do be in touch.
Thank you very much!
We are on a quest to find the best solution for new hifi nightclub soundsystem. Chatting with off-the-shelf PA makers has been a bit disappointing, so figured I'd put out a call for help. I've read through many other threads, but none exactly matched our requirements.
A bit about the project:
New Brooklyn venue, focusing on Electronic Dance Music (nothing live).
The space is total about 15,000sf, with 5000sf of that being the dancefloor. We certainly need enough bass and subbass to move people's bodies, but we don't want to sacrifice warmth and intelligibility in the mids and highs. We also want to minimize signal processing, so ideally use only Drivers, HiFi Amps, and Crossovers. This is a nightclub, so extended listener comfort is more important than precision source reproduction.
Our best idea so far involves using about 20 Class AB amplifiers (1000-2000W each) to push 2-4 drivers each. Run the system around 50% load to keep ample headroom. We didnt select speakers yet, but imagining something like a Classic 4-point Dance Stacks (one in each corner of the room). Each point would have something like 2x 21", 2x 12", 4x 8" and some tweeters. These Dance Stacks could be a combination of smaller off-the-shelf speakers, or a completely custom selection of drivers and custom built cabinets.
Though we do not have extensive speaker-design knowledge, our team is sufficiently technical to fabricate high quality speaker boxes and assemble electronic components if that's what it takes.
We are open to any and all of the craziest ideas, so if you're itching to design a set of 50' exponential horns please do be in touch.
Thank you very much!
"Run the system around 50% load to keep ample headroom."
I'm not sure what you mean by this. 50% power is 3 db. MOST music has AT LEAST 10 db of dynamic range, thus 10X the power----you can run a 500 watt amplifier at average levels of 50 watts and avoid most clipping--thus less "listener fatigue".
Bi-Amping with active crossovers would be a must for best results from this type of system.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. 50% power is 3 db. MOST music has AT LEAST 10 db of dynamic range, thus 10X the power----you can run a 500 watt amplifier at average levels of 50 watts and avoid most clipping--thus less "listener fatigue".
Bi-Amping with active crossovers would be a must for best results from this type of system.
Before you get too obsessed with keeping things analog its worth mentioning that the paradise garage used electronic delays:
Acoustilog Inc.: Disco Acoustics: The Paradise Garage
The only PA speaker company that I am aware of that use analog processing is KV2:
KV2 Audio
you will need a big budget to equip a large club though and isn't in the dance stack style.
if you want a New York style/RLA system it might be worth asking/looking around here (search the archived posts):
Club Sound Systems
worth mentioning that in the New York area there are probably quite a few second hand boxes available if you ask the right people.
Here is an exponential mid-bass horn I designed:
Mega midbass straight horn 139dB
currently under construction, building such a thing requires jigs etc. to bend the ply.
Acoustilog Inc.: Disco Acoustics: The Paradise Garage
The only PA speaker company that I am aware of that use analog processing is KV2:
KV2 Audio
you will need a big budget to equip a large club though and isn't in the dance stack style.
if you want a New York style/RLA system it might be worth asking/looking around here (search the archived posts):
Club Sound Systems
worth mentioning that in the New York area there are probably quite a few second hand boxes available if you ask the right people.
Here is an exponential mid-bass horn I designed:
Mega midbass straight horn 139dB
currently under construction, building such a thing requires jigs etc. to bend the ply.
What scared me a little was consulting with off-the-shelf PA makers. Personally I'd consult with a professional sound contractor. He won't be limited to one brand product line, and will have specific experience in your realm. He will know the range of products available and can offer advice as to which might be preferable. I think it would be worth his fee to get a solid assessment of your situation and some real suggested solutions.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
You really, really need to talk to simon7000 here, a total expert. Don't buy anything until you do.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24767201
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24767201
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a large part of listening fatigue can be attributed to strong point sources, that's OK for dance floor, but not desirable for conversation areas.
distributed mode loudspeakers (DML's) have this nice property of not being able to attribute a single source, such that the sound is spread even, and a distance to spl relation is weak
distributed mode loudspeakers (DML's) have this nice property of not being able to attribute a single source, such that the sound is spread even, and a distance to spl relation is weak
Agree with Justanalogue, a pair of MSL3 in each corner (or a single MSL10), 650 subs, decent analogue amps (Lab Gruppens?) with enough power. Old gear now, so probably available quite reasonably priced. Get the primary dance floor sound really good (attention to the system's in room power response is important). You'll need Meyer CP10 analogue parametric equalisers or at the least constant-Q graphics to tune the system for the room. You may not need to spend much on a distributed system. Just let the sound get quieter as punters get further away from the dance floor; not everyone likes it loud everywhere all of the time.
Slightly intrigued that somebody investing a few hundred thousand Dollars on a Night Club in, of all places, Booklyn, is consulting with you, who needs to ask in a general purpose Forum, not even in a focused one.
Mind you, there certainly is qualified people here, as mentioned above, but don´t understand why didn´t Club owners straight ask a dedicated Pro, as Enzo mentioned.
Any consulting fee is nil, compared to total expense.
Mind you, there certainly is qualified people here, as mentioned above, but don´t understand why didn´t Club owners straight ask a dedicated Pro, as Enzo mentioned.
Any consulting fee is nil, compared to total expense.
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Thanks everyone for the feedback and advice.
Does anyone have any idea where we could try to source a setup like this? Couldnt find much from quick googling.
Thanks again everyone!
We've had a site visit with their local reps and are planning a gear demo in the space sometime in the next few weeks. Curious to see how it goes. Their gear looks great, but we're a bit hesitant about fully proprietary Amp-DSP-Speaker systems.
Does anyone have any idea where we could try to source a setup like this? Couldnt find much from quick googling.
To clarify, I am one of the club owners. We have consulted with a handful of professionals as well as Manufacturers. The replies and PMson the forum have been equally (if not more) helpful and objective. And as Rayma pointed out we are sufficiently clueless and need all the help we can get!
Thanks again everyone!
Thanks Rayma,
First thing in a dance club is the dance floor! Concrete slabs are a bad idea as they are very hard on the feet. Better is a wood floor with floor joists spaced on 12" centers. In the old days this was filled with vermiculite, (also used as kitty litter) however as some of this has been found to emit radon gas and actually be radio-active, for some reason it has fallen out of favor. So an inch or two of plain sand will do. A solid slab has a resonant frequency, particles don't as they move and thus absorb even more energy that would be suggested by just the mass losses.
Next up is the ceiling. For a 5,000 square foot dance floor the ceiling should be 18 feet high or more! That allows the high frequency drivers of the loudspeaker stack to be at least 12 feet above the closest ears and 35 feet from the farthest ears. In theory that would put the sound pressure level +/- 4.7 dB through out the dance area. It will actually be better as the nearest folks will be off axis, and there is "room gain" so you will meet the normal +/- 3 dB many folks claim.
Now it is interesting that the Meyer MSL3(a) has been suggested. An obsolete design that actually inadvertently had a good design feature for a dance system. It used a midbass phase plug also called a dongle.
If you tap your sternum in the middle of your chest, you should feel a nice thump at a fairly low frequency. Not surprisingly if you tap it harder the thump is louder. The frequency of the thump is actually the frequency you wish to excite to get folks involved with the dance music.
It should also not come as a surprise that the velocity of the exciting signal increases the effect. If you have an 8" piston it will have to move 4 times as far as a 16" piston to emit the same energy in a given area. If you use a phase plug in the mid bass horn, it will act to increase the velocity of the moving air. Some have noted the MSL3 has a narrow coverage pattern. This in effect provides a selected area where the air pressure wave velocity is increased. That will affect some dancers! (1/2 M V**2 effect)
I used to use Community Loudspeakers Boxer Horns for the subwoofers in small dance clubs. They are no longer made. They did have an adjustable port so you could easily tune it for the magical chest thump frequency.
The amplifier of the day was of course the Crown MA series. Still models bearing that label but not quite the same. As noted analog processing is preferred. There may also be reasons why that works better for dance systems, but I will already be getting experts commenting on what I have mentioned so far.
As to gear, these days for dance systems, I look to Fulcrum for loudspeakers and QSC or Ashly Audio for amplifiers. Building your own loudspeakers, I would look at Eminence for drivers. They make a surprisingly large number of parts for some well respect loudspeaker system manufacturers!
As you want to roll your own loudspeakers, I would use a large bass horn with tuning ports for the low end. An important note is the loudspeaker should not be more than 30" wide, 76" tall, but can be 48" deep. That is the largest size that will fit through many doorways. Of course you can build a strap together pair to get around the size limit. I would also build a horn loaded midrange or use say a quad of direct radiators mounted on a facetted face. High frequency driver would be a compression driver on a horn.
An analog electronic crossover would be nice. Ashly used to make some of the better ones that had better control than most. Virtually all crossovers are now part of a DSP system. So I would go with a used one, available quite cheaply these days.
PM me if you want more details.
First thing in a dance club is the dance floor! Concrete slabs are a bad idea as they are very hard on the feet. Better is a wood floor with floor joists spaced on 12" centers. In the old days this was filled with vermiculite, (also used as kitty litter) however as some of this has been found to emit radon gas and actually be radio-active, for some reason it has fallen out of favor. So an inch or two of plain sand will do. A solid slab has a resonant frequency, particles don't as they move and thus absorb even more energy that would be suggested by just the mass losses.
Next up is the ceiling. For a 5,000 square foot dance floor the ceiling should be 18 feet high or more! That allows the high frequency drivers of the loudspeaker stack to be at least 12 feet above the closest ears and 35 feet from the farthest ears. In theory that would put the sound pressure level +/- 4.7 dB through out the dance area. It will actually be better as the nearest folks will be off axis, and there is "room gain" so you will meet the normal +/- 3 dB many folks claim.
Now it is interesting that the Meyer MSL3(a) has been suggested. An obsolete design that actually inadvertently had a good design feature for a dance system. It used a midbass phase plug also called a dongle.
If you tap your sternum in the middle of your chest, you should feel a nice thump at a fairly low frequency. Not surprisingly if you tap it harder the thump is louder. The frequency of the thump is actually the frequency you wish to excite to get folks involved with the dance music.
It should also not come as a surprise that the velocity of the exciting signal increases the effect. If you have an 8" piston it will have to move 4 times as far as a 16" piston to emit the same energy in a given area. If you use a phase plug in the mid bass horn, it will act to increase the velocity of the moving air. Some have noted the MSL3 has a narrow coverage pattern. This in effect provides a selected area where the air pressure wave velocity is increased. That will affect some dancers! (1/2 M V**2 effect)
I used to use Community Loudspeakers Boxer Horns for the subwoofers in small dance clubs. They are no longer made. They did have an adjustable port so you could easily tune it for the magical chest thump frequency.
The amplifier of the day was of course the Crown MA series. Still models bearing that label but not quite the same. As noted analog processing is preferred. There may also be reasons why that works better for dance systems, but I will already be getting experts commenting on what I have mentioned so far.
As to gear, these days for dance systems, I look to Fulcrum for loudspeakers and QSC or Ashly Audio for amplifiers. Building your own loudspeakers, I would look at Eminence for drivers. They make a surprisingly large number of parts for some well respect loudspeaker system manufacturers!
As you want to roll your own loudspeakers, I would use a large bass horn with tuning ports for the low end. An important note is the loudspeaker should not be more than 30" wide, 76" tall, but can be 48" deep. That is the largest size that will fit through many doorways. Of course you can build a strap together pair to get around the size limit. I would also build a horn loaded midrange or use say a quad of direct radiators mounted on a facetted face. High frequency driver would be a compression driver on a horn.
An analog electronic crossover would be nice. Ashly used to make some of the better ones that had better control than most. Virtually all crossovers are now part of a DSP system. So I would go with a used one, available quite cheaply these days.
PM me if you want more details.
The MSL-10 is in effect 3 x MSL-3s in one cabinet, which prevents any inter-cabinet phasing issues when seperate MSL-3s are used in an array. MSL-10s are possibly quite uncommon.
MSL-10A High Power - Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc.
MSL-10A High Power - Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc.
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True. In the '80s when MSLs were introduced rigging systems for the arraying of high performance PA systems were in their infancy. The MSL-10s were in a league above the MSL-3s with advanced features and better integration between cabinets.
So yes, but no? What were these advanced features? I'm a little skeptical that stacking always "prevents any inter-cabinet phasing issues".