hello,
i'm building a medium sized PA and im looking for the best compression driver/horn combo, to play everything above 700Hz (probably 1.4"). i'm aiming for 60x40 coverage angle, so heres the options i found while researching:
horn:
RCF HF64
eminence H14EA
SB Audience H280
P-Audio PH-305
compression drivers: (i know theres some really nice coax compression drivers, but i'd like the price for the comp to be max 300€)
SB Audience Bianco 75-CD-T
FAITAL HF140/ HF1440
18Sound ND1460
BMS, B&C...
i think the horns will all sound similar, im more worried about the compression drivers.... anyone have experience with the ones listed above? or am i missing any? which one is best (max ~300€ )??
cheers, lisette
i'm building a medium sized PA and im looking for the best compression driver/horn combo, to play everything above 700Hz (probably 1.4"). i'm aiming for 60x40 coverage angle, so heres the options i found while researching:
horn:
RCF HF64
eminence H14EA
SB Audience H280
P-Audio PH-305
compression drivers: (i know theres some really nice coax compression drivers, but i'd like the price for the comp to be max 300€)
SB Audience Bianco 75-CD-T
FAITAL HF140/ HF1440
18Sound ND1460
BMS, B&C...
i think the horns will all sound similar, im more worried about the compression drivers.... anyone have experience with the ones listed above? or am i missing any? which one is best (max ~300€ )??
cheers, lisette
Of the horns you have slected the P-Audio PH-305 would be my choice:
1) larger than the RCF HF64
2) eminence is listed as exponential not constant coverage
3) SB looks OK but my hope would be that using a continuous surface as the P-Audio does would have better performance
I think the horn would be the most important for the sound as <10kHz where the ear is most sensitive the compression drivers behave similarly.
1) larger than the RCF HF64
2) eminence is listed as exponential not constant coverage
3) SB looks OK but my hope would be that using a continuous surface as the P-Audio does would have better performance
I think the horn would be the most important for the sound as <10kHz where the ear is most sensitive the compression drivers behave similarly.
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Well, this was 1x ND1460 per side, running 1.2kHz upwards on RCF HF94 horns: PA system check at Batley Rugby Stadium - YouTube
The HF drivers were receiving ~300w peaks.
Running down to 700Hz, though, will pose problems. A big horn and narrower coverage angle (than my setup) will help.
What's the rest of the system?
Chris
The HF drivers were receiving ~300w peaks.
Running down to 700Hz, though, will pose problems. A big horn and narrower coverage angle (than my setup) will help.
What's the rest of the system?
Chris
700 Hz too low to be fine up to 20 kHz with a single driver-horn pair.
The only way i see - BMS4590 with huge P.audio 4528/4530 horns. Also maybe Beyma CP750/ti could cope with this at mentioned horns.
All of the pure titanium diaphragms will hit it's resonanse at typical 500-800 Hz, so your way only to polyester diapragms like 1" BMS4549plus or combined titanium diaphragm/mylar suspension like Beyma do. But 1" usually have small coils and smarr radiating surface to be really loud at 700 Hz while they really can reach 20 kHz.
Instead all of the huge 4" diapragm drivers like Beyma CP850 or JBL2446 or DAS audio ND-10 can't sucessfuly reach 20 kHz on any horn.
Keep in mind simple rule, XO must provide at least 20 dB rejection at HF-driver's resonant freq. So, check, would you accept sounding with 48 dB/oct slopes.
Last, but not least. At 700 Hz there are usually peak of the response from most popular 12"/15" midfreq drivers. Why you want to XO namely at this freq?
The only way i see - BMS4590 with huge P.audio 4528/4530 horns. Also maybe Beyma CP750/ti could cope with this at mentioned horns.
All of the pure titanium diaphragms will hit it's resonanse at typical 500-800 Hz, so your way only to polyester diapragms like 1" BMS4549plus or combined titanium diaphragm/mylar suspension like Beyma do. But 1" usually have small coils and smarr radiating surface to be really loud at 700 Hz while they really can reach 20 kHz.
Instead all of the huge 4" diapragm drivers like Beyma CP850 or JBL2446 or DAS audio ND-10 can't sucessfuly reach 20 kHz on any horn.
Keep in mind simple rule, XO must provide at least 20 dB rejection at HF-driver's resonant freq. So, check, would you accept sounding with 48 dB/oct slopes.
Last, but not least. At 700 Hz there are usually peak of the response from most popular 12"/15" midfreq drivers. Why you want to XO namely at this freq?
i know this may start a chorus of yuck's and boo's but after pulling them out storage and test running them i now wonder why i mothballed some old school cast horns, namely some 2350 radials with 2482 drivers high passed to some 2345 horns with some 2470 drivers mod/loaded with 2420 diaphragms(all JBL part numbers of course) that was the top end of a 3way Martin long throw rig.(phillies and single fifteens at 4 per side)
thanks for the input! i guess its better if i post the whole system idea, so here we go:
design goals:
build a soundsystem for the following room: (l*w*h)18m*6.5m*4.5m. all surfaces are low absorbing hard surfaces, no furniture except a 6.5m*4m*0.5m wooden stage at one end( no room treatment possible unfortunately,except maybe curtains on the 2 side walls ). sound will be needed for concerts (all types of music, sitting guests), movie watching (sitting guests), and partys (electronic music, standing guests). due to bad sound absorbtion in the building and sensitive neighbours it should not have a subwoofer and f3 should not be much lower than ~45Hz. also the system must be hanging to further reduce sound transmission to the floor (ceiling will handle ~150kg per side). speakers also must be active. max spl of 115dB should easily suffice, however it would be a nice bonus if the system could also be used for small outdoor events with higher spl. budget is 2300€ for all materials (active speakers, a 4 channel mixer, cables, hanging system,...). budget should be used up completely, and its ok if its ~200€ more rather than less...
another bonus: the person who asked for the soundsystem loves horns and loves MTM configurations, so bonus if both are possible
since i want to start building very soon, i wont have time for an extended design period, ill go with the first setup that i like and that roughly fits the requirements...
sooooo, here's what i came up with:
imo a 2-way system is the way to go since no subbass is required. since the height of the room is fairly low, i think the idea of a mtm setup is not that bad... especially since i plan to go with a digital crossover/dsp, i think i will have nice control over those vertical lobing patterns.
so my first thought was a pair of 10"-1.4"-10"... when looking for a suitable 10" driver i stumbled upon this dayton audio woofer: PA255-8 dont know much about this driver, but it seems to fit nicely. the response curve looks like it should sound really nice with a lowpass at~750Hz . thats where the idea for a 700Hz-20kHz compression driver came from. maybe its smarter to pick a different woofer and crossover higher, but i think a high-end compression driver should be able to do the job...
so my current setup would be something like the following:
2x 18sound HD1480T ~490€
2x P-Audio PH305 Horn ~80€
4x Dayton PA255-8 ~200€
2x Dayton PPA800DSP Plate amp ~700€
total: ~1470€
that would leave ~1k for wood, glue, cables, mixer,etc...
simulations suggest a 90l vented cab should work nicely for a pair of those woofers...
so what do you think about this setup?
cheers lisette
design goals:
build a soundsystem for the following room: (l*w*h)18m*6.5m*4.5m. all surfaces are low absorbing hard surfaces, no furniture except a 6.5m*4m*0.5m wooden stage at one end( no room treatment possible unfortunately,except maybe curtains on the 2 side walls ). sound will be needed for concerts (all types of music, sitting guests), movie watching (sitting guests), and partys (electronic music, standing guests). due to bad sound absorbtion in the building and sensitive neighbours it should not have a subwoofer and f3 should not be much lower than ~45Hz. also the system must be hanging to further reduce sound transmission to the floor (ceiling will handle ~150kg per side). speakers also must be active. max spl of 115dB should easily suffice, however it would be a nice bonus if the system could also be used for small outdoor events with higher spl. budget is 2300€ for all materials (active speakers, a 4 channel mixer, cables, hanging system,...). budget should be used up completely, and its ok if its ~200€ more rather than less...
another bonus: the person who asked for the soundsystem loves horns and loves MTM configurations, so bonus if both are possible
since i want to start building very soon, i wont have time for an extended design period, ill go with the first setup that i like and that roughly fits the requirements...
sooooo, here's what i came up with:
imo a 2-way system is the way to go since no subbass is required. since the height of the room is fairly low, i think the idea of a mtm setup is not that bad... especially since i plan to go with a digital crossover/dsp, i think i will have nice control over those vertical lobing patterns.
so my first thought was a pair of 10"-1.4"-10"... when looking for a suitable 10" driver i stumbled upon this dayton audio woofer: PA255-8 dont know much about this driver, but it seems to fit nicely. the response curve looks like it should sound really nice with a lowpass at~750Hz . thats where the idea for a 700Hz-20kHz compression driver came from. maybe its smarter to pick a different woofer and crossover higher, but i think a high-end compression driver should be able to do the job...
so my current setup would be something like the following:
2x 18sound HD1480T ~490€
2x P-Audio PH305 Horn ~80€
4x Dayton PA255-8 ~200€
2x Dayton PPA800DSP Plate amp ~700€
total: ~1470€
that would leave ~1k for wood, glue, cables, mixer,etc...
simulations suggest a 90l vented cab should work nicely for a pair of those woofers...
so what do you think about this setup?
cheers lisette
well i would spend more on this project and make something more in the way of a three way active system.
reason being if you are considering doing live sound events the response tailoring of a three way active system in conjunction with stage sounds is a god send...
are you going to sublet a monitor system for live events? for the rest of the duties this sytem will see stage monitors are not needed.(althought some DJ's insist on them)
reason being if you are considering doing live sound events the response tailoring of a three way active system in conjunction with stage sounds is a god send...
are you going to sublet a monitor system for live events? for the rest of the duties this sytem will see stage monitors are not needed.(althought some DJ's insist on them)
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My thoughts on this.
700hz and 20khz from a single CD are a bit ambitious for PA applications, if the system can reach 16-17khz relatively flat after EQ call it good. To do a 700hz crossover in a way you will want to stand in front of it requires a 2" exit comp and a large horn... not something that would look nice or even fit between two 10s. But a dual 10+1.4 can sound really good you just have to raise the crossover to around 1-1.2khz maybe and ignore the technical downsides this presents.
Something else you may not be considering yet, since the customer appears to like horns maybe a Synergy would be a good candidate.
700hz and 20khz from a single CD are a bit ambitious for PA applications, if the system can reach 16-17khz relatively flat after EQ call it good. To do a 700hz crossover in a way you will want to stand in front of it requires a 2" exit comp and a large horn... not something that would look nice or even fit between two 10s. But a dual 10+1.4 can sound really good you just have to raise the crossover to around 1-1.2khz maybe and ignore the technical downsides this presents.
Something else you may not be considering yet, since the customer appears to like horns maybe a Synergy would be a good candidate.
You think that all horns sound the same? Better go out and make your own horn- experiences instead to try to figure out horn sound in theoretical questions.
Nobody can give you an answer here, because
-all horns sound different
-nobody has auditioned all those horns, even yourself haven't heard them.
An audio forum can't make decisions about sound, because its highly subjective. Experiences have to made by yourself in life, nobody can make them for you. If so, why the need to make own experiences? So many people try to make highly subjective decisions on behalf of others experiences, its a nonsense, because in real life, just the own experience counts. Too lazy to make them for your own, think this could be all done from the couch in cosy home? Wrong, very wrong assumption.
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Anyway i'ld prefer 2" horn and driver for easy of further upgrade. Say you first put cheap Soundking k74/k75 or P.audio BM-D750(750_ii) 3" coil 2" exit driver on something PH3223 horn and further upgrade it to named Beyma CP750 or BMS4590.
Also 10" not really cheaper than 12" or even 15" but you can pick much more SPL's from much bigger membranes.
So MTM, yes, but 2x15"+3" or 2x12+3".
First time E-mu 0404USB could be used as a 2-analog input mixer with notebook digital output. Cheap if you can limit to 2 analog inputs but really unreachable sound quality.
So i'ld spent money to potent midbasses and 3" drivers at 2" horns.
I would consider using a 2" throat, 4" diaphragm comp to improve low frequency performance as at the SPL you talk about the high frequencies will be masked anyway:
Auditory masking - Wikipedia
you can always add tweeters later if the results are not satisfactory.
This combination would get low enough (1.4" throat):
Test Bench: RCF ND950 Neodymium Compression Driver and HF950 Horn | audioXpress
however dispersion is wider than you originally specified.
I would go with an outboard amp/dsp as you want to quickly be able to swap the electronics out if it fails and the thermal performance of plate amps under high load conditions can be poor.
Auditory masking - Wikipedia
you can always add tweeters later if the results are not satisfactory.
This combination would get low enough (1.4" throat):
Test Bench: RCF ND950 Neodymium Compression Driver and HF950 Horn | audioXpress
however dispersion is wider than you originally specified.
I would go with an outboard amp/dsp as you want to quickly be able to swap the electronics out if it fails and the thermal performance of plate amps under high load conditions can be poor.
I don't know if your in europe but this combination would outperform the plate amps:
the t.amp TSA 4-1300 – Thomann UK
the t.racks DSP 206 – Thomann UK
if your willing to go second hand you can get even cheaper using Symetrix/Biamp/QSC DSPs and whatever old iron is floating around (~1-2kW transformer amps sell for very little as they are heavy and have noisy fans).
the t.amp TSA 4-1300 – Thomann UK
the t.racks DSP 206 – Thomann UK
if your willing to go second hand you can get even cheaper using Symetrix/Biamp/QSC DSPs and whatever old iron is floating around (~1-2kW transformer amps sell for very little as they are heavy and have noisy fans).
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