Apologies if this sounds like a newbie question – that is because I am a newbie 😊 I suspect that what I want to do here is probably not possible, but I’m asking anyway in case there is some trick I have missed.
The background to this is that I am using PC to stream religious services to Facebook and YouTube; the software is OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) on Windows 10. I have an IP camera feeding into OBS and the audio feed is taken from the headphone socket on the amplifier for the PA system. At the moment, I have a CD player feeding into the amplifier which allows us to play music at various times during the services. For various reasons, I would prefer to play the music from the PC. The problem is that the congregation cannot hear the music doing it that way.
What I had thought about was something like taking the headphone out port on the PC and connecting it into the PA amplifier; my fear that is that it will create a nasty feedback loop with sound from the CD going into the PA system and through the microphones back into the amplifier and OBS. I haven’t physically tried this because I am concerned it might do physical damage to the equipment.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could get this to work or, as I said at the start, is it just not possible?
The background to this is that I am using PC to stream religious services to Facebook and YouTube; the software is OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) on Windows 10. I have an IP camera feeding into OBS and the audio feed is taken from the headphone socket on the amplifier for the PA system. At the moment, I have a CD player feeding into the amplifier which allows us to play music at various times during the services. For various reasons, I would prefer to play the music from the PC. The problem is that the congregation cannot hear the music doing it that way.
What I had thought about was something like taking the headphone out port on the PC and connecting it into the PA amplifier; my fear that is that it will create a nasty feedback loop with sound from the CD going into the PA system and through the microphones back into the amplifier and OBS. I haven’t physically tried this because I am concerned it might do physical damage to the equipment.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could get this to work or, as I said at the start, is it just not possible?
Hi,
Could you detail the hardware used ( pc soundcard, mixer,.. brands and model number) and if you can make a sketch of installation?
Yes you could run into trouble about feedback but there is way to arrange software in your pc (and hardware outside it) for it not to happen.
It will depend of your gear mostly.
Could you detail the hardware used ( pc soundcard, mixer,.. brands and model number) and if you can make a sketch of installation?
Yes you could run into trouble about feedback but there is way to arrange software in your pc (and hardware outside it) for it not to happen.
It will depend of your gear mostly.
Ok i found an even easier way to implement what you want within your pc that i initially thought ( through the use of a couple of software) but it will have a drawback ( which can be major or not it will depend on your needs and workflow).
I will explain it once you list gear you use ( it is needed to be sure it can work!).
I will explain it once you list gear you use ( it is needed to be sure it can work!).
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It's not an issue at all, and quite simple. You need a CD-ROM drive on the PC if you are limited to CDs, and if you can use files then a playback software of your choice.
What you do need to do is mute the IP camera's microphone, and have OBS pick up the mixed sound from the PCs mixer. OBS does allow you to select specific sources for audio already. The audio output of your PC is fed to the amp, the stream only gets the mixed sound directly from the source. Feedback happens when you have two acoustic paths to the same source, this will really not happen because the software domain and hardware domain are separated completely.
What you do need to do is mute the IP camera's microphone, and have OBS pick up the mixed sound from the PCs mixer. OBS does allow you to select specific sources for audio already. The audio output of your PC is fed to the amp, the stream only gets the mixed sound directly from the source. Feedback happens when you have two acoustic paths to the same source, this will really not happen because the software domain and hardware domain are separated completely.
Diagram attached shows setup.
I don’t have a model number to hand for the mixer/amplifier and can’t find out until Monday but it is a really old piece of kit – I suspect it was installed in 1978 when the church was opened! It has a built in CD player which I couldn’t use as it wouldn’t play CD-R; I had to add a new external CD player.
The PC is a Dell OptiPlex 7010 SFF 3rd Gen Quad Core i5-3470 with 8GB RAM and I’m currently using the onboard sound. I have a Creative SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 USB sound card which I’m not currently using if that would be any benefit; inputs are Line In and Mic with a headphone socket; outputs are L and R (RCA jacks
rear and C/Sub (both 3.5 mm jack) and a TOSLINK optical out
I don’t have a model number to hand for the mixer/amplifier and can’t find out until Monday but it is a really old piece of kit – I suspect it was installed in 1978 when the church was opened! It has a built in CD player which I couldn’t use as it wouldn’t play CD-R; I had to add a new external CD player.
The PC is a Dell OptiPlex 7010 SFF 3rd Gen Quad Core i5-3470 with 8GB RAM and I’m currently using the onboard sound. I have a Creative SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 USB sound card which I’m not currently using if that would be any benefit; inputs are Line In and Mic with a headphone socket; outputs are L and R (RCA jacks
rear and C/Sub (both 3.5 mm jack) and a TOSLINK optical out
Hi Sangram,
Well it is not that easy: for the crowd to listen to tracks played you'll need to send it to pa mixer. Once it reach PA mixer (or amplifier) there is potential feedback between pa ouput and microphone connected to it.
Usually you have an operator in charge to mute the mics if feedback happens but te OP being a newbie it can be daunting at first. But it is the cheapest and safer way to adress the issue ( it could be done automaticaly trough the use of a 'feedback destroyer' processor but let's assume the OP won't spend money).
There is other possible conflicts between obs and file player too. I've had similar issue at a web radio using some of my gear.
The solution i envisage adress this issue.
Edit: very nice and complete diagram! Thank you.
Well it is not that easy: for the crowd to listen to tracks played you'll need to send it to pa mixer. Once it reach PA mixer (or amplifier) there is potential feedback between pa ouput and microphone connected to it.
Usually you have an operator in charge to mute the mics if feedback happens but te OP being a newbie it can be daunting at first. But it is the cheapest and safer way to adress the issue ( it could be done automaticaly trough the use of a 'feedback destroyer' processor but let's assume the OP won't spend money).
There is other possible conflicts between obs and file player too. I've had similar issue at a web radio using some of my gear.
The solution i envisage adress this issue.
Edit: very nice and complete diagram! Thank you.
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I don't get the problem. OBS can simply use only the input stream from the amplifier. You do not have to select the stereo mix.
There's some confusion here between physical and virtual nodes. The sockets on the soundcard are physical, whereas the pins available to OBS are virtual. If you do not select an input, OBS does not put that audio into the mix. The virtual pin and physical output are connected together in Windows mixer, and if you were trying to use it, you would have all osrts of problems. But from what I can see this is not a complex situation at all.
You can see that in the diagram: OBS is handling both the audio and video directly, so if you had a sound source that was feeding into the headphone output, it would not be routed through OBS unless you made it, and there's no reason to do that
There's some confusion here between physical and virtual nodes. The sockets on the soundcard are physical, whereas the pins available to OBS are virtual. If you do not select an input, OBS does not put that audio into the mix. The virtual pin and physical output are connected together in Windows mixer, and if you were trying to use it, you would have all osrts of problems. But from what I can see this is not a complex situation at all.
You can see that in the diagram: OBS is handling both the audio and video directly, so if you had a sound source that was feeding into the headphone output, it would not be routed through OBS unless you made it, and there's no reason to do that
I have no problem doing that myself but I am trying to make this as simple to use as possible so it can be managed by other people with little or no technical knowledge.
krivium said:
Budget is very restricted but I see a 'feedback destroyer' available at €24, a Behringer HD400 - would that do the job?
Thank youkrivium said:
I think I get it now, Sangram. If I output the desktop audio to the amplifier but mute the desktop feed inside OBS, there should be no feedback issue - is that what you are saying?You can see that in the diagram: OBS is handling both the audio and video directly, so if you had a sound source that was feeding into the headphone output, it would not be routed through OBS unless you made it, and there's no reason to do that
Exactly. Actually even Windows mixer knows the simple fact that you should never mix the input and output streams. Which is why the recording control panels allow you to choose the input. The big issue is when you need to record both the input and output stream at the same time, which would be problematic. As long as you only use the PA amplifier's headphone output, you'll be fine.
So as long as you don't let OBS record both audio streams at the same time, there's no problem at all. If you were attempting to mix the sound internally, then you'd have an issue as you'll then have to deal with the same sound coming from two sources, with the delay that can cause feedback and echo problems. This can be caused (as an example) when trying to use an internally captured stream that is playing over speakers, and then trying to mix in a voiceover. Now you have the same sound coming in from two sources, which can get tricky - and usually not possible to do in a proper livestream.
In your case I don't see a problem.
So as long as you don't let OBS record both audio streams at the same time, there's no problem at all. If you were attempting to mix the sound internally, then you'd have an issue as you'll then have to deal with the same sound coming from two sources, with the delay that can cause feedback and echo problems. This can be caused (as an example) when trying to use an internally captured stream that is playing over speakers, and then trying to mix in a voiceover. Now you have the same sound coming in from two sources, which can get tricky - and usually not possible to do in a proper livestream.
In your case I don't see a problem.
Thanks for all the help guys, I will try Sangram's solution on Monday - I don't want to interfere with existing setup until Sunday services are out of the way.
Now a completely different problem!
In the above setup, I am having problems with the sound from one mic - #4 in the above diagram. It is erratically giving bad audio (choppy) in OBS but the sound from it is perfect coming over the PA system.
Any suggestions what could be causing that or how I can deal with it?
Now a completely different problem!
In the above setup, I am having problems with the sound from one mic - #4 in the above diagram. It is erratically giving bad audio (choppy) in OBS but the sound from it is perfect coming over the PA system.
Any suggestions what could be causing that or how I can deal with it?
Hi,
I mostly agree with you Sangram if the audio driver is multiclient ( it enable to use multiple audio software at the same time using soundcard physical and virtual node).
If not you'll have conflict between player and obs as they'll try to use same physical out and won't allow the other soft to play same time.
This is one of the issue we had at the web radio the other being that it was impossible to monitor the audio stream realtime ( it is always safer to monitor output which broadcast ( in this case OBS) rather than send). This was with win7 and i don't know if win10 evolved regarding this. It is dependent of soundcard hardware and driver too.
To be honest if win10 now allow for multiclient native it'll be simple as what Sangram proposition.
Simple to try: load obs, load a player try to play a track with the player and see if OBS dropout or not, and if the track play normally to the physical output you have choosen.
If it doesn't work i'll have an other possible answer.
Otherwise if you fear feedback yes behringer offer works ok but you'll need one for each mic ( edit no, what you linked is a DI. You need a DSP1100 or equivalent current range model which is pricer, one chanel for each mic so 3 dsp1100 units).
Using the headphone out is handy but not the best way to do it. Don't you have a record out ( or output labeled 'to 2track') on the desk? It could be 'better' to use it to enter the soundcard.
I mostly agree with you Sangram if the audio driver is multiclient ( it enable to use multiple audio software at the same time using soundcard physical and virtual node).
If not you'll have conflict between player and obs as they'll try to use same physical out and won't allow the other soft to play same time.
This is one of the issue we had at the web radio the other being that it was impossible to monitor the audio stream realtime ( it is always safer to monitor output which broadcast ( in this case OBS) rather than send). This was with win7 and i don't know if win10 evolved regarding this. It is dependent of soundcard hardware and driver too.
To be honest if win10 now allow for multiclient native it'll be simple as what Sangram proposition.
Simple to try: load obs, load a player try to play a track with the player and see if OBS dropout or not, and if the track play normally to the physical output you have choosen.
If it doesn't work i'll have an other possible answer.
Otherwise if you fear feedback yes behringer offer works ok but you'll need one for each mic ( edit no, what you linked is a DI. You need a DSP1100 or equivalent current range model which is pricer, one chanel for each mic so 3 dsp1100 units).
Using the headphone out is handy but not the best way to do it. Don't you have a record out ( or output labeled 'to 2track') on the desk? It could be 'better' to use it to enter the soundcard.
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OBS is not connected to any physical out. Not in the diagram, and it doesn't need to be. If you need to listen and stream without isolation, that's what headphones are for. All live sound pros use them when they need to listen to what's going to 'tape'.
As for multi-client, if you're using WDM drivers they already use shared mode, and most applications for Windows support it by default. It sucks, but it works. Linux and Mac are little tougher to use this way. There's no real shared mode using those.
Yeah there is no monitor of what is broadcasted, thta's why i talked about workflow in previous message ( and the limitation i talked about initially).
I find it risky but i'm biased ( former soundengineer). For casual use it may never be an issue however( till one happen ).
I never used anything of windows origin for audio: internal routing is dubbious (to say the least) and i'm used to asio and bypass every windows dedicated audio engine or route.
This was what i would have suggested: bypass everything and use dedicated software layer.
But it seems it is unescessary which is nice!
I find it risky but i'm biased ( former soundengineer). For casual use it may never be an issue however( till one happen
).I never used anything of windows origin for audio: internal routing is dubbious (to say the least) and i'm used to asio and bypass every windows dedicated audio engine or route.
This was what i would have suggested: bypass everything and use dedicated software layer.
But it seems it is unescessary which is nice!
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When I raised the problem with one of the microphones in the OBS Forum, someone there also recommended Voicemeeter. I can’t see what advantage it would give me here where I am taking a single audio feed from the PA amplifier; can you explain further?
It does take over windows gestion of the physical and virtual nodal point about hardware and software.
It is a complete virtual mixer with proaudio spec ( sound pristine and routing capability ( it has aux eq,... for banana version) and is stable ( it runs flawlessly 24/24 for last 3 years on the webradio i talked about).
With your usb multichanel output you could use it to monitor realtime what is broadcasted and at the same time still have multiple 'source' out ( player or other software).
It is all about workflow and what you wish. But it comes at a price which is a ( very) relative complexity in use. ( as you increase the routing capability the danger of feedback grow too).
Imho, if once you try Sangram's approach you have issues with stability this is the next step to consider. If all is ok and you don't whish additional routing or advanced monitoring and that soundquality is ok to your audience there is no need for it really.
I second Rick PA Stradel : it could be better to use a 'conventional' line interconnect rather than use the headphone out.
But here again be cautious (keep the possibility to go back to your initial instalation) if you start experimenting with this as new issues could happen ( the only one i could see ispotential groundloops issues ( hum or buzz) which may happen with a pc involved). Difficult to tell without being with you and play with the gear in real life.
Anyway please take a picture of mixer ( front of course but connector panels too) as there may be other way to achieve this (interconnect through dedicated output on the desk) .
It is a complete virtual mixer with proaudio spec ( sound pristine and routing capability ( it has aux eq,... for banana version) and is stable ( it runs flawlessly 24/24 for last 3 years on the webradio i talked about).
With your usb multichanel output you could use it to monitor realtime what is broadcasted and at the same time still have multiple 'source' out ( player or other software).
It is all about workflow and what you wish. But it comes at a price which is a ( very) relative complexity in use. ( as you increase the routing capability the danger of feedback grow too).
Imho, if once you try Sangram's approach you have issues with stability this is the next step to consider. If all is ok and you don't whish additional routing or advanced monitoring and that soundquality is ok to your audience there is no need for it really.
I second Rick PA Stradel : it could be better to use a 'conventional' line interconnect rather than use the headphone out.
But here again be cautious (keep the possibility to go back to your initial instalation) if you start experimenting with this as new issues could happen ( the only one i could see ispotential groundloops issues ( hum or buzz) which may happen with a pc involved). Difficult to tell without being with you and play with the gear in real life.
Anyway please take a picture of mixer ( front of course but connector panels too) as there may be other way to achieve this (interconnect through dedicated output on the desk) .
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About your issue with mic i would take a look at outputlevel of headphone amp:
If there is no degradation on pa output there is not so many place where issues could happen.
If you go backward ( from end of chain to start): you have your soundcard line input, your headphone amplifier on desk and then the electronic input of the headphone circuit.
Try to lower output level of headphone at first then if it doesn't change you'll need a maintenance engineer to take a look at the desk imho.
( another reason to stick with standard line level interconnect as it is suposedly compatible in terms of signal level and impedance).
If there is no degradation on pa output there is not so many place where issues could happen.
If you go backward ( from end of chain to start): you have your soundcard line input, your headphone amplifier on desk and then the electronic input of the headphone circuit.
Try to lower output level of headphone at first then if it doesn't change you'll need a maintenance engineer to take a look at the desk imho.
( another reason to stick with standard line level interconnect as it is suposedly compatible in terms of signal level and impedance).
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