Hi,
I built an MTH-30 sub for our little ska/ reggae band and we are delighted with how well it works. Loaded with precision devices 12 running off crown amp. Kick sounds great.
I have 2 HK tops (old!) called "HK Compact." Replaced (! piezo) tweeters with APT150 and fitted 12 inch fane 250TC drivers to replace the fitted eminence 12LTA. Sounded much better. Also fitted new crossovers- tried a 2.5 and also 5 KHZ crossover. Not sure if they were a good idea...
Honestly - a stupid question - we like the tops as they are small, and that is very important in the small venues we play but they are a tiny bit harsh, ? at 5 KHz? maybe running the crossover too high, I think we can get a better sound. Not sure if the triple cone speaker should be allowed to run all the way as high as it can go and just have a HP on the tweeter instead?
I'm thinking of either replacing the tweeters/crossover - space is limited in the cab so would like a tweeter that could run a bit lower and also fit the APT150's plastic horn... Or maybe replace the speakers entirely with maybe something like a SLA Pro - some sort of column design or maybe Omintop 8 (with compression drivers not piezos!) - I'm very concerned at having ports on the side of the cab though as seems like a recipe for feedback??We would need a cab to do down to about 120Hz to meet the MTH-30 I think?
Probably stupid questions but if it was you and you had to build as narrow a cab as possible to match an MTH-30 sub to take full band (kick, keys, vox, bass) what would you do? We need horizontal and definitely NOT vertical dispersion where we play - low ceiling pubs in UK! Should I be looking at or 10's , 12's or maybe a column speaker/horn speaker of some sort. Not really up for a commercial powered cab as I like making speakers and after MTH-30 feel we can get good sound from DIY cab. We have another 1400w amp available. Any advice please? Great forum by the way!
I built an MTH-30 sub for our little ska/ reggae band and we are delighted with how well it works. Loaded with precision devices 12 running off crown amp. Kick sounds great.
I have 2 HK tops (old!) called "HK Compact." Replaced (! piezo) tweeters with APT150 and fitted 12 inch fane 250TC drivers to replace the fitted eminence 12LTA. Sounded much better. Also fitted new crossovers- tried a 2.5 and also 5 KHZ crossover. Not sure if they were a good idea...
Honestly - a stupid question - we like the tops as they are small, and that is very important in the small venues we play but they are a tiny bit harsh, ? at 5 KHz? maybe running the crossover too high, I think we can get a better sound. Not sure if the triple cone speaker should be allowed to run all the way as high as it can go and just have a HP on the tweeter instead?
I'm thinking of either replacing the tweeters/crossover - space is limited in the cab so would like a tweeter that could run a bit lower and also fit the APT150's plastic horn... Or maybe replace the speakers entirely with maybe something like a SLA Pro - some sort of column design or maybe Omintop 8 (with compression drivers not piezos!) - I'm very concerned at having ports on the side of the cab though as seems like a recipe for feedback??We would need a cab to do down to about 120Hz to meet the MTH-30 I think?
Probably stupid questions but if it was you and you had to build as narrow a cab as possible to match an MTH-30 sub to take full band (kick, keys, vox, bass) what would you do? We need horizontal and definitely NOT vertical dispersion where we play - low ceiling pubs in UK! Should I be looking at or 10's , 12's or maybe a column speaker/horn speaker of some sort. Not really up for a commercial powered cab as I like making speakers and after MTH-30 feel we can get good sound from DIY cab. We have another 1400w amp available. Any advice please? Great forum by the way!
Faital 10HX230 would do the job.
What've you got in terms of amplification and processing?
They sound great even when you're dropping a kilowatt in there. Just before lockdown, I was using those (and a couple of 15" subs) for some Disco Divas (capitals because they were in the charts at the time, the real deal) and they were impressed at how much sound came out of those little boxes.
Chris
What've you got in terms of amplification and processing?
They sound great even when you're dropping a kilowatt in there. Just before lockdown, I was using those (and a couple of 15" subs) for some Disco Divas (capitals because they were in the charts at the time, the real deal) and they were impressed at how much sound came out of those little boxes.
Chris
Last edited:
The issue with off the shelf crossover is that they are not taking into account your drivers frequency response, sensitivity or impedance so the resulting frequency response will deviate from the intended. If your generally happy with your current speakers why not fit them with an NL4 connector and run them from a 4 channel DSP amplifier, buy a measurement mic and program in the crossover and EQ you want.
For a higher quality screw on driver you could try BMS:
Overview
For a higher quality screw on driver you could try BMS:
Overview
Thank you! Chris we use Crown XLS1502 amp and an old Thomanns 1400w amp. I'm going to get another crown as we're getting on a bit and the Thomanns amp weighs s bloody ton. We use soundcraft ui24 for processing as well as is our mixer. Looking at prices for faital pro and BMS tweeters I wonder if there's a slightly more budget choice, for tweeter that might be an upgrade on APTs. Kipman? I'll play with crossover point using crown as well. Cheers gents,.
On the cheap I highly recommend the Wharfedale D-533A HF driver. They sound decent, better than JBL's at least, but most importantly legit replacement diaphragms are dirt cheap on eBay, like $25 a pair delivered (to US at least). I've used the hell out of them and only had any die from beer spills.
5kHz is definitely too high for a 12" LF driver, should be more like 2kHz. The APT150's are designed to be used in a 3-way cabinet above a small midrange driver, and they're pretty crappy and underpowered for use below 3.5kHz. D-533A's would serve you much better.
Definitely recommend against monitors without treble horns. Seems the 250TC can reach 10kHz or so, but treble from larger cones is so fatiguing on the ears. You can bypass the crossover in your existing speakers to try the 250TC's full range and hear what you'll be subjected to. You're going to regret it and there's no way to add horns later.
On the cheap you can just put a high pass filter on the horn driver, let the drivers overlap. For an 8 ohm driver you just need a 220uF bipolar cap across the speaker terminals for a 2kHz HPF. Get yourself an L-pad control to dial in the tweeter level that fits best, measure the resistance, and buy resistors to install. You should try wiring the tweeter out of phase too, to see if it's a better fit at the overlap.
If the overlap is harsh no matter how you wire it, mount a 3" damper made of felt or carpet etc in the center of the speaker grill to block the treble. That will attenuate everything above the beaming frequency, for a 12" speaker that's 1.3kHz. Looks like the 250TC jumps up 5dB at 1.4kHz anyways, a damper would probably be an improvement even if they're not too harsh at first.
If you've got D-533A's all round then a couple spare diaphragms have you well covered. Let the beer flow!
5kHz is definitely too high for a 12" LF driver, should be more like 2kHz. The APT150's are designed to be used in a 3-way cabinet above a small midrange driver, and they're pretty crappy and underpowered for use below 3.5kHz. D-533A's would serve you much better.
Definitely recommend against monitors without treble horns. Seems the 250TC can reach 10kHz or so, but treble from larger cones is so fatiguing on the ears. You can bypass the crossover in your existing speakers to try the 250TC's full range and hear what you'll be subjected to. You're going to regret it and there's no way to add horns later.
On the cheap you can just put a high pass filter on the horn driver, let the drivers overlap. For an 8 ohm driver you just need a 220uF bipolar cap across the speaker terminals for a 2kHz HPF. Get yourself an L-pad control to dial in the tweeter level that fits best, measure the resistance, and buy resistors to install. You should try wiring the tweeter out of phase too, to see if it's a better fit at the overlap.
If the overlap is harsh no matter how you wire it, mount a 3" damper made of felt or carpet etc in the center of the speaker grill to block the treble. That will attenuate everything above the beaming frequency, for a 12" speaker that's 1.3kHz. Looks like the 250TC jumps up 5dB at 1.4kHz anyways, a damper would probably be an improvement even if they're not too harsh at first.
If you've got D-533A's all round then a couple spare diaphragms have you well covered. Let the beer flow!
Well. I did end up making a couple of tops. As the places we play have ended up bring quite wide I made a 4 x 8inch faitals with a (sorry!( melded piezo array (6 monacor(. Oddly sounded very clear so pleased with them 525w per side. Had an ex echo and the bunnyman soundman say the rig sounded good. I will look at high quality coaxials as next set up when we need to "aim" sound more as happens in some of the weirder shaped country pubs where you dont necessarily want wide dispersion. Cheers for all the ideas.
Hi,
Well a lot of gigs with the tops now done. They are bfm sla pros built with actually 6 inch faital pro and piezo vertical array. They are clear and surprisingly loud. Im still going to build coaxials as..
1. The tops only like wide rooms - too much sound hits walls in narrow rooms - unless i can get them well in front of band and toe them in sufficiently. If this isnt posdible a coaxial ( like the faital pro 10 mentioned seems a good call(
2. Whilst a piezo array definitely tames them the top end and is way better than the apt tweeters ( by a long way) they are not as smooth as you get in more expensive tweeters. Its very good for the money spent but not BMS lol!
More gigs to come to make money for next set- will bring speakers appropriate to room layout in the future!
Well a lot of gigs with the tops now done. They are bfm sla pros built with actually 6 inch faital pro and piezo vertical array. They are clear and surprisingly loud. Im still going to build coaxials as..
1. The tops only like wide rooms - too much sound hits walls in narrow rooms - unless i can get them well in front of band and toe them in sufficiently. If this isnt posdible a coaxial ( like the faital pro 10 mentioned seems a good call(
2. Whilst a piezo array definitely tames them the top end and is way better than the apt tweeters ( by a long way) they are not as smooth as you get in more expensive tweeters. Its very good for the money spent but not BMS lol!
More gigs to come to make money for next set- will bring speakers appropriate to room layout in the future!
Sorry i dont think ive got pics of build but heres 2 of the tops on the sub ( sometimes just do mono stack- ratchet strapped , here's a photo from when listening at home ) do this if we can only have speakers on one side- like when there's a door that needs to be kept clear. Playing in pubs is fun but sometimes a pain in the ****!
Last edited:
10" + HF are just little mid/high cabs for use with subs. I use a cheap dbx Driverack speaker management unit and 4 x sealed 18s and yes, the HF sounds divine - I was lucky enough to get a pair of TPLs for under £400. They do not function in the same manner as a ribbon but look like one! You can't go much wrong with anything Beyma, and Blue Arran do some great prices. Radian HF drivers are also very nice as are BMS 4594 mid/HF coaxials but all top end price-wise. There are plenty of well-priced lower cost compression drivers that would work nicely with a 10".
Hi, the tops are 4 x 6inch columns with FaitalPro 6FE200. The piezo array is IIRC 6 vertical piezo (cut and stuck together) these were monacor mpt016). I think the idea of a vertical array of piezos is to smooth the response ( get rid of harshness(. They have a crossover to piezos - ? 2k but none on 6's - tgese just roll off naturally. Theres a few builds described at bill fitzmaurices site of these under sla pro if you are interested.
Have some larger gigs next year - outdoors - not earth shaterring volumes required- need another mth built for this
Im sure there are better speakers! but these were an easy build- and fitted well into car ( big issue!) With all the other kit- just had to spend time carefully eqing the piezos ( using ui24) - did some crude measurements outdoors using pink noise and took out some peaks - maybe have a listen to some to make sure you like them first! Mcklinkys speakers will im sure sound much sweeter! Cheers, Al
Have some larger gigs next year - outdoors - not earth shaterring volumes required- need another mth built for this
Im sure there are better speakers! but these were an easy build- and fitted well into car ( big issue!) With all the other kit- just had to spend time carefully eqing the piezos ( using ui24) - did some crude measurements outdoors using pink noise and took out some peaks - maybe have a listen to some to make sure you like them first! Mcklinkys speakers will im sure sound much sweeter! Cheers, Al
Last edited: