Hi all. Im involved in a beach bar/ lido project. As well as an overall venue system for lower level general use, they want a semi portable system for beach parties and outdoor cinema use.
Their supplier has proposed a pair of cheapish active 12 inch cabs with bluetooth, so i suspect they dont have quite the same image as me of what we need!
Since i am busy, but wish to make my mark on the system, i would propose they provide a decent pair of circa 600w 15 inch active cabs, then i come up with a supporting subwoofer system myself.
Im a fan of tapped horns having built 4 based on a volvotreter design a decade or so ago.
So, going in that direction, i have a few questions:
First, would i be better off with, say, a single 18, or a pair of 15"s? I imagine maybe the 18 would be cheaper, an easier build and set up, but a pain to shift
2x15s would have benefit of being a pair of sources, more flexible, easier to move, but more expensive and time consuming to build, and more fiddly to set up and put away.
Also, given the outdoor location, and neighbours to the property, maybe even 3x12" in a cardioid arrangement?
Im looking for punchy deep bass, something mobile enough to tip back onto wheels and drag indoors each night, and easy to set up in a few locations around the (flat but lawn and sand) site.
I did read somewhere about a sub with a smaller rear - firing driver on a delay, giving cardioid response in a single cabinet. Cant find it now.
A tapped horn with this feature would be nice, but i guess if the rear driver needs a seperate cabinet it would end up a very bulky speaker.
Looking forward to any suggestions!
Their supplier has proposed a pair of cheapish active 12 inch cabs with bluetooth, so i suspect they dont have quite the same image as me of what we need!
Since i am busy, but wish to make my mark on the system, i would propose they provide a decent pair of circa 600w 15 inch active cabs, then i come up with a supporting subwoofer system myself.
Im a fan of tapped horns having built 4 based on a volvotreter design a decade or so ago.
So, going in that direction, i have a few questions:
First, would i be better off with, say, a single 18, or a pair of 15"s? I imagine maybe the 18 would be cheaper, an easier build and set up, but a pain to shift
2x15s would have benefit of being a pair of sources, more flexible, easier to move, but more expensive and time consuming to build, and more fiddly to set up and put away.
Also, given the outdoor location, and neighbours to the property, maybe even 3x12" in a cardioid arrangement?
Im looking for punchy deep bass, something mobile enough to tip back onto wheels and drag indoors each night, and easy to set up in a few locations around the (flat but lawn and sand) site.
I did read somewhere about a sub with a smaller rear - firing driver on a delay, giving cardioid response in a single cabinet. Cant find it now.
A tapped horn with this feature would be nice, but i guess if the rear driver needs a seperate cabinet it would end up a very bulky speaker.
Looking forward to any suggestions!
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18's usually win on the maximum output per unit money but as you point out are a pain to move.
This 12" tapped horn will go loud and is small, goes low enough for many genres.
Martinsson's Blog - THAM12
if you where willing to field a lot of them with DSP and amp channels you could shape the coverage very effectively.
This sub claims to be cardoid using a single 18" and 12":
V subwoofer for high performance | d&b audiotechnik
This 12" tapped horn will go loud and is small, goes low enough for many genres.
Martinsson's Blog - THAM12
if you where willing to field a lot of them with DSP and amp channels you could shape the coverage very effectively.
This sub claims to be cardoid using a single 18" and 12":
V subwoofer for high performance | d&b audiotechnik
Hey thanks for the nice quick reply. Music wise, we would be talking house, disco, reggae, and everything else too at some point.
I was checking the Tham 15 and 12 earlier.. The tham 12 seems to tail off pretty drastically under 50 hz.. Ideally id like to go lower, some usable volume at 30 - 35 would be nice.
Im guessing that fielding "a lot of them" isnt likely either, im guessing 2 cabs might be a sensible limit.
Something like the tham15 but tuned a bit lower with a bit less output, then used as a pair...
The link looks interesting, but id like to keep at least the subs diy if possible.. Maybe somebody built similar.
I was checking the Tham 15 and 12 earlier.. The tham 12 seems to tail off pretty drastically under 50 hz.. Ideally id like to go lower, some usable volume at 30 - 35 would be nice.
Im guessing that fielding "a lot of them" isnt likely either, im guessing 2 cabs might be a sensible limit.
Something like the tham15 but tuned a bit lower with a bit less output, then used as a pair...
The link looks interesting, but id like to keep at least the subs diy if possible.. Maybe somebody built similar.
I was just modeling up a "Claire 18SW" eighteen-inch driver, available in the UK....this individual wanted a sealed system...but it graphed out very poorly in response for the bottom end.
In a rather small 188 liter enclosure, it was getting down to -3.06 decibel at 25.95 hertz....really really good!
With the 1000 watt rating, and 37.5 mm worth of Xmax...I'd bet it would sound really great.
Myself? , I would put two "wings", (flaps, extensions at the front baffle)
The two extensions could do double duty as forming an erzatz "horn"...as well as folding closed to form a driver cover..?
Size?
721.74mm tall
572.86 mm wide
454.68mm deep
without taking into consideration port volume, attending to the 0.7937/1.0/1.2599 ratio ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------Rick........
In a rather small 188 liter enclosure, it was getting down to -3.06 decibel at 25.95 hertz....really really good!
With the 1000 watt rating, and 37.5 mm worth of Xmax...I'd bet it would sound really great.
Myself? , I would put two "wings", (flaps, extensions at the front baffle)
The two extensions could do double duty as forming an erzatz "horn"...as well as folding closed to form a driver cover..?
Size?
721.74mm tall
572.86 mm wide
454.68mm deep
without taking into consideration port volume, attending to the 0.7937/1.0/1.2599 ratio ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------Rick........
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I would keep output at the expense of low frequency corner if you have to make the choice, outdoors with the further listening distances and lack of room reinforcement generally requires more sub. The general public will notice a sub system run into heavy distortion but won't notice missing 30 -50Hz unless they are specifically listening for it. Adding baffle wings 'barn doors' is a proven way to increase directivity.
*other options that are a bit more efficient than THAM15 if you don't mind larger cabs:
ROAR15
High order quarter wave society subs (see facebook)
Using a neo driver can reduce cab weight significantly and also using popular ply with an epoxy based coating.
*other options that are a bit more efficient than THAM15 if you don't mind larger cabs:
ROAR15
High order quarter wave society subs (see facebook)
Using a neo driver can reduce cab weight significantly and also using popular ply with an epoxy based coating.
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Some thoughts:
- If you're running subwoofers, there's no need for a 15" 2-way box above that. Go for a 10" or 12" 2-way. Smoother midrange, more even dispersion.
- When it comes to subwoofers, the lower you want to go, the bigger it's gonna be. I'd suggest 40Hz is a sensible LF cutoff. I'd suggest building something that stands around 4 feet tall, and permanently attach large tyres at the back for a tilt-and-roll system. A neo-based 2x18" would fit the bill, and only require one trip to/from storage.
- What will be used for power and/or amplification?
Chris
many thanks for the replies everyone!
all good suggestions im sure.
particularly useful are the suggestions of "barn doors" and the lack of need for 15" tops (i suggested those as in the past i had a system with 2x 600w jbl 15" tops, on a sampson amp, and 4 small but low tuned (30hz) tapped horns.. i crossed over from the tops to the horns at 60 hz, and they just added what was "missing" without getting overloaded. the system sounded great.. however that was indoors. )
my experience with outdoor sound is exactly zero.
i did read one thread yesterday where somebody proposed using two horn subs, next to each other, angled in a bit, with a "w" shaped "horn extension" between them. this (apparently) added lots of low end extension and spl, but it was a single post, and im not sure what to call it for further research.
i like this idea since the two subs could be smaller, and the "horn extension" could be in some sense "flat pack" and even optional. however my skills dont extend to mathematically modelling such a setup. im more of a " all the experts say this design rocks, lets build it from the plans" kinda guy.
re. amplification, nothing decided yet. system should be as easy to set up as possible, even for a novice, so maybe plate amps with built in crossover might be best.. otherwise, just something that will work reliably without blowing the bank. in my old system as mentioned i had a 1200w sampson amp for the mains, a behringer cheapo sub crossover, and a cheapy chinese 800wpc amp for the tapped horns. that amp died after a few years, but the system is no longer mine, so not my problem
ive recently built an indoor hifi system using minidsp and room correction, so i have some basic knowledge of dsp correction, which might be useful..
all good suggestions im sure.
particularly useful are the suggestions of "barn doors" and the lack of need for 15" tops (i suggested those as in the past i had a system with 2x 600w jbl 15" tops, on a sampson amp, and 4 small but low tuned (30hz) tapped horns.. i crossed over from the tops to the horns at 60 hz, and they just added what was "missing" without getting overloaded. the system sounded great.. however that was indoors. )
my experience with outdoor sound is exactly zero.
i did read one thread yesterday where somebody proposed using two horn subs, next to each other, angled in a bit, with a "w" shaped "horn extension" between them. this (apparently) added lots of low end extension and spl, but it was a single post, and im not sure what to call it for further research.
i like this idea since the two subs could be smaller, and the "horn extension" could be in some sense "flat pack" and even optional. however my skills dont extend to mathematically modelling such a setup. im more of a " all the experts say this design rocks, lets build it from the plans" kinda guy.
re. amplification, nothing decided yet. system should be as easy to set up as possible, even for a novice, so maybe plate amps with built in crossover might be best.. otherwise, just something that will work reliably without blowing the bank. in my old system as mentioned i had a 1200w sampson amp for the mains, a behringer cheapo sub crossover, and a cheapy chinese 800wpc amp for the tapped horns. that amp died after a few years, but the system is no longer mine, so not my problem
ive recently built an indoor hifi system using minidsp and room correction, so i have some basic knowledge of dsp correction, which might be useful..
Go for the likes of the STILL available Crown (pun intended) XLi 3500 two-channel amp, old school, but not for long...plenty of power available...you're not going to be running at 100% power all the time...so it should last a very long time without a failure.
Stateside it is at a little less than $750 USD. Always use more power than a driver is 'rated" for if possible....clean overloads are better than fully clipped overloads.
What you never touched on was the size of the venue?...Like a hundred meters by a hundred meters?...football pitch size?, or half that?
I can be much more detailed in my particular design...I designed & built a speaker pair for a local DJ "for hire"...he did the music for our wedding in 1996...
-----------------------------Rick.................................
Stateside it is at a little less than $750 USD. Always use more power than a driver is 'rated" for if possible....clean overloads are better than fully clipped overloads.
What you never touched on was the size of the venue?...Like a hundred meters by a hundred meters?...football pitch size?, or half that?
I can be much more detailed in my particular design...I designed & built a speaker pair for a local DJ "for hire"...he did the music for our wedding in 1996...
-----------------------------Rick.................................
So a standalone amp would be advisable over inbuilt amplification.. ok, ill check out those aps, hopefully i can find them in Italy. Everything is overpriced here.
regarding the venue, the actual place is probably 2 football pitches, but that includes restaurant, parking, a huge lawn with hammocks etc, then a beach which is about 25m deep and 100m long.
bear in mind however that i believe they are only licensed for parties with about 100-200 people, so its not a big system we are talking about, and they would likely want to contain any heavy sound to a limited area, the people in the restaurant ( 200m from the beach) wont want their plates rattling off the table.
i imagine either on the beach facing mostly out to sea to avoid to much neighbour antagonism, OR on the back of beach where theres a small outbuilding which will serve as a 2-3m wide cinema screen, so ideally the subs would be low enough to be centre placed under the screen, which will maybe be about a metre from the floor.
regarding the venue, the actual place is probably 2 football pitches, but that includes restaurant, parking, a huge lawn with hammocks etc, then a beach which is about 25m deep and 100m long.
bear in mind however that i believe they are only licensed for parties with about 100-200 people, so its not a big system we are talking about, and they would likely want to contain any heavy sound to a limited area, the people in the restaurant ( 200m from the beach) wont want their plates rattling off the table.
i imagine either on the beach facing mostly out to sea to avoid to much neighbour antagonism, OR on the back of beach where theres a small outbuilding which will serve as a 2-3m wide cinema screen, so ideally the subs would be low enough to be centre placed under the screen, which will maybe be about a metre from the floor.
the t.amp TSA 1400 – Thomann UK
Rob's Amp tests - Page 3 - Bass Gear - Data-Bass Forums
t.amp TSA-1400 (1x 1600 W bridge at 4 Ohm)
Rob's Amp tests - Page 3 - Bass Gear - Data-Bass Forums
t.amp TSA-1400 (1x 1600 W bridge at 4 Ohm)
The way to make the system easy to set up would be to put all the amps and DSP in a rolling rack and run the speaker/power/input connections to labeled patch panels with labels matching the speaker connections. When someone wants to set it up they just have to plug the cables into the corresponding sockets. Lock away all the amp gain controls etc. If you use a DSP that has external control inputs you can set that up to control the DSP input to output gain (system volume control) and put a slow acting compressor in the DSP signal flow after the input to limit the maximum input volume (and therefore as you have also set up the maximum DSP gain the maximum output volume).
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