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Compact PA - in a car handled by a single man.
Compact PA - in a car handled by a single man.
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:04 PM   #61
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
and you don't need subs, according tot the specs.


Those are awesome 2 way full range speakers using a 15" and a 1.4" Titanium Compression Driver, 4.0" v.c, giving up output above 10k. These specs are no indication for real world use / output power.

PM90? Please support a link.
Yes I agree specs on all speakers are misleading as they just give the output in the most sensitive (mid) range. The bass is usually less efficient and excursion limited.

All speakers are to a degree a compromise. If you consider the PM90 that has given up bass capability (always needs subs), is very expensive and uses a coaxial compression driver that has some issues (see axi2050 presentations at Salford acoustics conference). I guess you could use an axi2050 in the PM90 at even greater cost 😉
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Old 21st October 2019, 04:17 PM   #62
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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After playing around in Hornresp, I am ready to draw my own design inspired by the Teeny Tiny subwoofer. Nothing special, just constant cross-section vent with some bracing, since it will be made from 15 mm plywood. And all 90 deg cuts. Nothing to write home about, just a standard bass reflex cab, but with small footprint for easier transport, it will be most probably slightly larger than the TT, but still small enough. If successfully built, I will of course share the plans.
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Old 24th October 2019, 10:12 AM   #63
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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I got my hands on a pair of aluminium H6000 horns by RCF and here is some quick measurement with 8PE21 I have for another project. It is bare driver and bare driver with horn. It makes me wonder if, with a dedicated midrange driver by RCF or BC and a matching 1" horn would make a very compact "top" for the subs, sort of a split RCF 4PRO 6001.
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File Type: jpg 8PE21-w.jpg (343.7 KB, 93 views)

Last edited by pelanj; 24th October 2019 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 25th October 2019, 11:11 AM   #64
David Morison is offline David Morison  Scotland
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The thing about that idea is that the 8"/H6000 combo can only be used above about 400Hz.

Your sub's will not necessarily sound very good played up that high, and there will be an obvious and unsatisfying dislocation in where the sounds of things like voices are coming from. That is, it sounds odd when the low parts of a voice are coming from down on the ground and the rest of the voice coming from up in the air, where your mid-high's should be.

So, you would still need a decent low mid section to go with the H6000+ HF, making a bigger and heavier top cabinet.

IMO, for the size of space you're looking at working in, a decent 12" 2 way should be perfectly acceptable - for commercial boxes, anything from the Yamaha DSR112 on up, or ideally anything with a larger HF to allow a slightly lower crossover, taking some of the load off the 12". In RCF's ranges, that could be NX32, HD32 or ART732 depending on budget/availability/preference for looks and cabinet type.

If DIY'ing your tops, again, look at using at least a 1.4" HF, crossed as low as it can go without sounding harsh. The RCF cab's I mentioned above all seem to be using the ND840 which is available off the shelf and not too expensive, with a horn roughly the same size as their HF96 or HF94.
Chris G's 2x10's are one good way of doing it - though I suspect you'd get good enough results with a single 12" and save a little on cost too.

HTH,
David
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Old 25th October 2019, 12:38 PM   #65
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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Thanks for your input, David. The H6000 horns will end up in my home system or in some compact 3way with the intended RCF mid drivers. I have the band from 140 to 500 Hz covered by large 15" front horns now. Maybe the H6000 could work well with some super-planar 1x12 kick bins for reducing the size - but at home, it is not too important since it is not being transported anywhere.

12" + 2" (or 1.4") is the combination I will most probably settle upon. I am following our local used market and time from time, suitable boxes appear for sale, both factory and DIY.

By the way, do you know which HF horn is used in the 4Pro6001A? According to this plan (4pro RCF) it is HF94 crossed over at 1500 Hz.
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Old 25th October 2019, 12:51 PM   #66
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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This was mentioned in the 2-way high SPL low distortion thread: Soundpressure needed... - WestLab Audio Gmbh, with a review and some measurements here: Test: Westlab LABRAT 12 - Prosound

It is supposed to use a BMS coaxial driver. I think I would be perfectly happy with a DIY clone of this speaker (with passive crossover).
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Old 25th October 2019, 01:46 PM   #67
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Overview

Seems OK, as the review states it achieves good dispersion characteristics in the most critical range. But I would worry about the cone movement modulating the compression driver output. Personally I would add another driver for the 120 - 300 Hz range and run the coax in a small box.
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Old 25th October 2019, 02:45 PM   #68
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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With my limited coaxial driver experience, I could not hear any modulation, but that was at indoor (loud) listening volumes. At full power/xmax, it may be a different story. By the way, the first coaxials I heard long time ago were Tannoy 8" DC studio monitor. I really liked these for normal listening volumes. And I used Eminence Beta12CX for a long time as my main workshop speakers.

One thing I do not like is, that the coaxial drivers with passive crossover are not time aligned. And I guess that in 99% of the passive PA tops, they are not aligned as well. It looks as the new RCF biamped active boxes with DSP are actually time aligned, which is a big plus for me.
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Old 25th October 2019, 07:43 PM   #69
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kipman725 View Post
Overview

Seems OK, as the review states it achieves good dispersion characteristics in the most critical range. But I would worry about the cone movement modulating the compression driver output. Personally I would add another driver for the 120 - 300 Hz range and run the coax in a small box.
For high-power applications, I'd agree.

For the situation we're in here, the midbass cone isn't going to be moving much anyway - it'll be highpassed around 100Hz.

IMO, a 3-way system (1.4" HF, 12" MF, 15-18" LF) will do fine here. If anything, you could probably get away with a 10" midbass.

Chris
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:48 PM   #70
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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The 8PE21 is a really nice speaker. I also have some ME-20 horns. I think I will try to build a box just for fun - in MTM configuration. In a smallish bass reflex, it seems I could get something like 122 dB/4pi continuous with 400 W
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