Hi guys my initial thought is about to buy 16 pieces Beyma TPL-200B/S, 8 pieces Beyma 10MCF400Nd, 4 pieces Radian 2216 NEO & 8 pieces B&C 21IPAL.
My purpose is to have an extream loud sound system but same time very detail-natural sound & very low distortion. Like a studio sound but in a club version...
I listen to techno house, epic, cinematic orchestra, vocals and more... Also i produce and mixing electronic music.
My questions are the next:
1) Can 16 Beyma TPL-200 support 8 Beyma 10MCF400Nd, 4 Radian 2216 NEO & 8 B&C 21IPAL? The sound want to be balance with some superiority of the low bass ideally, with right harmony of all of them.
2) Which amplifiers need to drive B&C 21IPAL subwoofer if i it's not going to use IPAL amplifiers ?
3) Its important to use passive crossovers to protect Beyma TPL-200 & Beyma 10MCF400Nd ? Or i can use an electric crossover as for Radian 2216 NEO & B&C 21IPAL ?
Drivers info:
Beyma TPL-200 (120 Watt AES 101 db Sensitivity) hight frequency use 2khz to 20khz
Beyma 10MCF400Nd (400 Watt AES 102 db Sensitivity) midrange use 400hz to 2khz
Radian 2216 NEO (1400 Watt AES 101 db db Sensitivity) low midbass-woofer use 90hz to 400hz direct radiator bass reflex design.
B&C 21IPAL (2500 Watt AES 99 db Sensitivity) Subwoofer use 26hz to 90hz in direct radiator cabinet as L-Acoustics KS28 design but bigger version.
All drivers have very low harmonic distortion, very good linearity-responce, very high power & Sensitivity. Also I would appreciate to give me any other advice...
My purpose is to have an extream loud sound system but same time very detail-natural sound & very low distortion. Like a studio sound but in a club version...
I listen to techno house, epic, cinematic orchestra, vocals and more... Also i produce and mixing electronic music.
My questions are the next:
1) Can 16 Beyma TPL-200 support 8 Beyma 10MCF400Nd, 4 Radian 2216 NEO & 8 B&C 21IPAL? The sound want to be balance with some superiority of the low bass ideally, with right harmony of all of them.
2) Which amplifiers need to drive B&C 21IPAL subwoofer if i it's not going to use IPAL amplifiers ?
3) Its important to use passive crossovers to protect Beyma TPL-200 & Beyma 10MCF400Nd ? Or i can use an electric crossover as for Radian 2216 NEO & B&C 21IPAL ?
Drivers info:
Beyma TPL-200 (120 Watt AES 101 db Sensitivity) hight frequency use 2khz to 20khz
Beyma 10MCF400Nd (400 Watt AES 102 db Sensitivity) midrange use 400hz to 2khz
Radian 2216 NEO (1400 Watt AES 101 db db Sensitivity) low midbass-woofer use 90hz to 400hz direct radiator bass reflex design.
B&C 21IPAL (2500 Watt AES 99 db Sensitivity) Subwoofer use 26hz to 90hz in direct radiator cabinet as L-Acoustics KS28 design but bigger version.
All drivers have very low harmonic distortion, very good linearity-responce, very high power & Sensitivity. Also I would appreciate to give me any other advice...
Last edited:
Lots of directions you can go with this.
Is this a permanent installation or portable system? If permanent, consider room treatment. What size are the room(s)/venue(s)? Do you want modular tops or just one big box per side?
Read this link to see an example of a high-end line array using planar ribbons. If I was rich....
Alcons view on line-array technology - Alcons Audio
If I was doing a direct radiating line array using eight TPL-200 per side, I would:
- Use eight 5" or 6" mids.
- Use a total of at least four to eight 12". Preferably the 18 Sound 12NTLW3500.
- Crossover points look good. I would try for linear phase if possible.
- IPAL's are top of the line and require monster amps to get the most out of them. Really should use the IPAL amp to get the best sound quality. You'll need the largest Powersoft, PKN, SpeakerPower, etc, amps to get them moving.
- Powersoft X-Series look real nice for the tops. Dynacord, Lab Gruppen, Linea Research are good options as well.
You'll also need a measurement setup to dial everything in and the knowledge to know what you're measuring/adjusting. This part is the most important !!! A quality local pro would be a big help in achieving the best results.
Is this a permanent installation or portable system? If permanent, consider room treatment. What size are the room(s)/venue(s)? Do you want modular tops or just one big box per side?
Read this link to see an example of a high-end line array using planar ribbons. If I was rich....
Alcons view on line-array technology - Alcons Audio
If I was doing a direct radiating line array using eight TPL-200 per side, I would:
- Use eight 5" or 6" mids.
- Use a total of at least four to eight 12". Preferably the 18 Sound 12NTLW3500.
- Crossover points look good. I would try for linear phase if possible.
- IPAL's are top of the line and require monster amps to get the most out of them. Really should use the IPAL amp to get the best sound quality. You'll need the largest Powersoft, PKN, SpeakerPower, etc, amps to get them moving.
- Powersoft X-Series look real nice for the tops. Dynacord, Lab Gruppen, Linea Research are good options as well.
You'll also need a measurement setup to dial everything in and the knowledge to know what you're measuring/adjusting. This part is the most important !!! A quality local pro would be a big help in achieving the best results.
Last edited:
How many loudspeakers have you designed and built? I've been building loudspeakers for twenty years, and three-way systems are still a challenge for me. It takes me a few months to get one right. And a four way? Yikes. What you're proposing is complex and expensive, but could be fun if you have a great deal of experience and expertise.
I'd say you've got the numbers of components wrong. You want to minimise the number of sources, especially at HF, to avoid interference. Setting off with 4x21" per side running down to 26Hz, you could match their output with a pair of 12"s and a crossover at 100Hz.
They would need to be good 12"s. Above the 2x12", I'd use one of the BMS coaxial compression drivers running down to about 700Hz. Since the BMS coaxials effectively work as one driver, you can treat it as a 3-way system. It might not look as impressive as 16x HF and 8x MF, but I'd expect better sound quality and it'll be much much cheaper, too. Amp-wise, pick any of the usual touring stuff: Powersoft X-series, Lab Gruppen FP, Crown ITechs, etc.
Chris
They would need to be good 12"s. Above the 2x12", I'd use one of the BMS coaxial compression drivers running down to about 700Hz. Since the BMS coaxials effectively work as one driver, you can treat it as a 3-way system. It might not look as impressive as 16x HF and 8x MF, but I'd expect better sound quality and it'll be much much cheaper, too. Amp-wise, pick any of the usual touring stuff: Powersoft X-series, Lab Gruppen FP, Crown ITechs, etc.
Chris
Room size: 15 meters lenght, 6 meters wide, 4 meters tall
4 subwoofer: 2 per side & 2 in the middle stack
4 tops speakers 2 per side & 2 in the middle. Every speaker contains 4 TPL-200, 2 10MCF400Nd & 1 2216 NEO
all speakers will be pa disign no huge home cinema boxes
The reason to use Beyma 10MCF400Nd is because want less drivers and check harmonic distortion of 10MCF400Nd and is really lower than most 5" or 6" drivers. Also 6MCF200Nd is same good quality but half power and less sensitivity. 18 Sound 12NTLW3500, BMS 12N802 and many other are very good and same quality as Radian 2216 NEO but not same power & sensitivity. Also less punchy bass ftom 90hz to 140hz think.
So the reason use very high power and big drivers is because want little less size and boxes with biger spl and same quality of sound...
Thank you for the link and advice for amplifier... Also if buy all them sure will call someone who is expert here in area.
Υet what you suggest to do with crossovers ? Buy passive for mid-top & active electronic for midbass-lowbass or only electronic for all ?
You could buy the best drivers in the world and it will sound terrible without a properly designed crossover.
Read here: So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!
Read here: So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!
Every high frequency compressor driver have more harmonic distortion than TPL 200 driver wach out the frequency response BMS graphics & distortion curves and see the difference also you can find in voice coil magazine.... Further from that horns coloring the sound even in top brands L Acoustics, Funktion one, Meyer Sound, JBL and other 30 brands...
Those Beyma mid high drivers are the lowest charmonic distortion could find after days of hard research and speaking with papers and not bro science...
I dont think that will be any problem as interference.... this issue be with horns... wach B&W Sound system hifi tower... 6 tweeters in every speaker...
I have already sound system as this you say... 2 Beyma CP 800TI, 2 Beyma 15P80FE, 2 Beyma 21 inch in made 2 bandpass 18 sound cabinets, 2 JBL 2386 horns.
Crossover Frequency: 33 hz to 100hz subwoofer active, Midbass 100hz to 1.8khz passive, high 1.8khz to 20khz passive. And it is really very loud and nice sound but not extreamly clean & some times i want even more acoustic power than this... which is really impressive already!!
The reason I mentioned smaller mids is for closer center to center distances to minimize interference as you move side to side. You can minimize this problem by covering half the 10" cone as done by many manufacturers.
I would focus on making two high power main stacks and a smaller summed mono center fill for near field listeners. Keep in mind that stacking HF devices limits vertical dispersion. They will need to be slightly above crowd height with a slight downward angle for best coverage.
I wouldn't underestimate 90-140hz. Lots of energy in that range. You need a good amount of surface area and thermal headroom to match those subs.
If no live music is going to be run through the system you can use FIR LR48 filters for the mids/highs and FIR LR24 for the subs/midbasses. These will be available with high end DSP amps. Should be all active for best results.
Beyma and Mundorf Pro AMT are the best easily sourced pro mid-high devices available. The fan- cooled 8" Mundorf can put out 123db with minimal compression(the fan is a bit loud according to one reviewer). The Beyma can only reach about 116 before thermal compression starts. Both are much cleaner than any compression driver.
I can't emphasize enough on proper measurements and tuning. This is where most of the real sound quality comes from.
I would focus on making two high power main stacks and a smaller summed mono center fill for near field listeners. Keep in mind that stacking HF devices limits vertical dispersion. They will need to be slightly above crowd height with a slight downward angle for best coverage.
I wouldn't underestimate 90-140hz. Lots of energy in that range. You need a good amount of surface area and thermal headroom to match those subs.
If no live music is going to be run through the system you can use FIR LR48 filters for the mids/highs and FIR LR24 for the subs/midbasses. These will be available with high end DSP amps. Should be all active for best results.
Beyma and Mundorf Pro AMT are the best easily sourced pro mid-high devices available. The fan- cooled 8" Mundorf can put out 123db with minimal compression(the fan is a bit loud according to one reviewer). The Beyma can only reach about 116 before thermal compression starts. Both are much cleaner than any compression driver.
I can't emphasize enough on proper measurements and tuning. This is where most of the real sound quality comes from.
Last edited:
The 21" IPAL driver is very expensive due to the powerful motor, its a bit of a waste to use in bass reflex. Something like: Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files - Bass Projects - Data-Bass Forums would get more out of the drivers. Also as the drivers are inside the cabinet and excursion is reduced the distortion (both harmonic and non harmonic like air noise) should be reduced.
Another thing I notice is that your planning to make non constant directivity speakers and then array them which will result in comb filtering. I'm not sure your focus on distortion performance is the most important factor as in psycoacustic testing harmonic distortion has to reach a high level to be noticeable.
Good luck!
*for amps for the IPAL they become a lot easier to drive with two drivers in series, you can use something like a powersoft K20: dB v2 if budget/power isn't unlimited a single K20 channel per driver pair would also work.
Another thing I notice is that your planning to make non constant directivity speakers and then array them which will result in comb filtering. I'm not sure your focus on distortion performance is the most important factor as in psycoacustic testing harmonic distortion has to reach a high level to be noticeable.
Good luck!
*for amps for the IPAL they become a lot easier to drive with two drivers in series, you can use something like a powersoft K20: dB v2 if budget/power isn't unlimited a single K20 channel per driver pair would also work.
Last edited:
I listened in a room a little bigger than yours a system capable of very high acoustic pressure. It consisted of 4 sub-woofers with two 21-inch drivers each, and two tops with two 12-inch drivers, two twitters of 1-2-inch and two super-tweeters. The tweeters were with acoustic guide. They were amplified by 8 channels of 2500 watts and digital crossover. The way they sounded was amazing, the best sound heard in a large room, similar to the sound of some high-end audition speakers not PA speakers, so very clear detaliate and precise.
Last edited:
Mundorf AMT 29CM 1.1-R its spec claims 250 watt but program or AES-RMS ?
Mundorf-Lautsprecher AMT 29CM1.1-R
Those are the home models. These are the pro models.
http://www.mundorf.com/PDF/MUNDORF_proAMT_Catalog.pdf
Attached below is a comparison between TPL200 and an 8" Mundorf done by member PVRX.
Ultimately both are very similar in performance and indistinguishable in listening tests according to the reviewer and cohorts. Go for the cheaper one. I don't think you'll need the complexity of a fan if using multiple units.
I emailed Mundorf about the fan and they stated most manufactures using their amt's have gone away from them as they are not needed.
http://www.mundorf.com/PDF/MUNDORF_proAMT_Catalog.pdf
Attached below is a comparison between TPL200 and an 8" Mundorf done by member PVRX.
Ultimately both are very similar in performance and indistinguishable in listening tests according to the reviewer and cohorts. Go for the cheaper one. I don't think you'll need the complexity of a fan if using multiple units.
I emailed Mundorf about the fan and they stated most manufactures using their amt's have gone away from them as they are not needed.
As a reference: I set up a room about this size in a small club; 2x QSC 153 (15" reflex + 6"horn loaded mid) + 2x KW181 (18" subs together put in a corner)and this is way louder then ever needed. (levels which make people vomit) They had 2 more subs but I did not use them as the 2x 18" were already overkill. These with a PA2 will cost about 6k and sound pretty good.
What kinds of setup are you planning with left, middle and right stacks? A LCR (left center right) live sound setup?
You probably are going to setup at the short end of the room and the room so a crossover between 120 and 160 probably works out nice.
Tweeter xover is at 2-2.5k so 6" or 8" will give a decent off axis response. Take 4 or 8 (9 makes original impedance) of them and put them in a vertical line; the vertical off axis response will start to narrow and dispersion will match the line source tweeters nicely.
Add some subwoofers (sealed or FLH for best SQ) and you have a very nice 3 way system.
IMO having separate kick-bins is a sign of wrong design or speaker setup; tops are in full space so mid-bass output is less and often battling the other top speaker and themselves with wall, floor, ceiling reflections messing up the mid-bass.
Also be aware that with recorded music almost everything below 160hz is mono and you don't want separate mono sources putting out the same signal as that will be a comb-filtering disaster.
A good electronic crossover/speaker management system like a DBX PA2 feeding separate amps is IMO the way to go.
Setting up the speakers right is 2nd most important to get good SQ.
A problem in your current setup is the 15" drivers playing way to high; resulting in less detail and bad off axis response. Would these drivers not rather do bass duty?
Passive xover for the mids; active is a lot cleaner and think of what happens if the passive components get warm.... (x-over frequency will move)
The 21" in bandpass boxed are probably also struggling at their upper frequencies so it might be an idea to go 4 way after all by adding some (2x4?) 6" mids, 2 amps and a PA2 and go full active. Make the tops as slim as possible with well rounded 'corners' or even vertical cylinders for best off axis response.
4 way re-using your current setup : 21" - xo~50hz - 15" - xo~<200hz - 6" - xo~2.2khz
keeping the bass to mid crossover below 200hz, so no xover in the vocals and sound becomes directional from here. 2.2khz would be favorable because of a change in our hearing because of the width of our heads which correspond.
It might well be that you won't need the 21" at all and are better of with 2 extra 15P80FE's and go 3 way. How low do you need to go?
Feel free to shoot.
The sound is really nice for PA little less good than L-Acoustics Arcs II but almost double sound pressure... if you see the graphs in Beyma 15P80Fe they play smooth with low distortion curves until 2 khz so no problem in quality...
Beyma Speakers - Beyma 15P80FeN speaker - Beyma 15P80Fe Water Resistant Speaker, 1,600 watt 15" woofer for all mid-bass applications. Beyma 15P80FeN and other Beyma 15" speakers here. Great for indoor or outdoor use.
I use passive crossover for mid-high at point 1.8khz because a guy who has shop with pa speakers & a studio told me that you need passive crossover for your highs to protect them, not only active (maybe he dont have that much knowledge but i trust him)... passive crossover is 900 watt (little more than my midbass so no really big problm to get damage... and even so i have also active crossover....
bandpass boxed dont struggling upper bass frequencies because it is full of very fat great quality foam everywhere & also active crossover has many options to sound curves of bass frequencies...and after hard work made it sound really good in door and out door.
Also thanks for all that info...
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.