Because horns coloring the sound and dont sounding natural even in the biggest names manufacturers & companies... As L-acoustics, JBL and other 30 brands.... I want the highest quality sound in maximum sound pressure! That will be illusion!! I dont care about cost 30k or 40k.... Some guys spending more for cars or everything else....
Peter Morris designs are quite nice. For ultimate sound quality he will tell you that his TPL200 loaded line array boxes are the best measuring and sounding speakers he's built but limited in spl compared to compression drivers. That's where fan cooling comes in.
I forget who uses AMT's in commercially available high power sound reinforcement products.
that's a bold statement...... all horns suck? Some people believe the only proper lifelike sound comes from old westrex horns
There are good and bad implementations of horns. The Beyma ribbons need a horn/waveguide too..... ? Do you really believe just putting that lot of drivers that you have in mind (multiple HF drivers!) on a baffle to directly radiate will automatically sound amazing?
Do you have an opinion on Danley Sound products? With that kind of money you have available, you could just buy a couple of SH96s and call it a day...... just saying.
Yes multiple HF drivers with low distortion will sound amazing & clean
https://mixmag.net/assets/uploads/images/_full/Bowers5.jpg
Do you see? 16 HF drivers of hifi sound system for PA use... 4 of those stacks costs 1million! I can make my hifi like 2 of those stacks with 30k....
I have hear Danley Sound systems many times... as and many many other brands the quality have nothing to do with hifi (which best sound of them has L-Acoustics)... I am not idiot to spend 40k for popular brand when the same time i can buy & make with same money louder sound with hifi quality! Otherwise i have already very good PA system but without hifi sound...
https://mixmag.net/assets/uploads/images/_full/Bowers5.jpg
Do you see? 16 HF drivers of hifi sound system for PA use... 4 of those stacks costs 1million! I can make my hifi like 2 of those stacks with 30k....
I have hear Danley Sound systems many times... as and many many other brands the quality have nothing to do with hifi (which best sound of them has L-Acoustics)... I am not idiot to spend 40k for popular brand when the same time i can buy & make with same money louder sound with hifi quality! Otherwise i have already very good PA system but without hifi sound...
I could not find of axis response for 15" drivers. But here is an 8" :
You see the higher frequencies narrowing? Your 15" 2kHz response will look similar like the 4kHz response for this 8".
Off axis response of drivers will narrow once their wavelenght is less then the drivers width.
1000Hz ~ 13.5" (effective width of a 15")
2000Hz ~ 6.8" (effective width of a 8")
4000Hz ~ 3.4" (effective width of a 4")
Wavelength to distance
And even though the 88 grams heavy 15" can play test signals up to 4kHz, wouldn't a 8 gram 6" driver do a better (more detailed) job?
The 6" would have a bad off axis response as well at 4kHz, better take a 3.3"for that like visaton frs 8m :
This last one is one of my favorite drivers and I cross 2 or 4 of them over at 5kHz to the dayton mini planar to get great off axis response for the high as well and these ultra light mini planars just sound so nice/detailed.
your tweeters: https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000003957.pdf
With a passive crossover crossing these over lower would be very difficult looking at the impedance curve. Is that the reason they are crossed that high?
Going active should make these tweeter beasts play from 1kHz and up. This will fix a lot in your current system!
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There is no perfect or optimal sound system as that would be something like 2 finger tip size holes in rocks emitting rock concert sound levels; 2 tiny point sources.
Horns are great for high output and low distortion. High power is high distortion. You also can't hear the "highest sound quality" if the sound levels are to high as your hearing start to filter to protect itself. Above 10kHz will be filtered first.....
Bad horns sound bad.
Have you heard, for example, an RCF HF94 horn, or a similar one from that line? I have used the HF94s extensively - they're very good. Much less colouration than a different driver that's distorting from being driven too hard.
Another point to consider is that with your plan of a line of HF drivers, you'll have a system that's acting as a line source at some frequencies, and a point source at others. That means your HF balance will vary with distance, since a point source drops at 6dB per doubling of distance and a line source drops at 3dB/2D.
ie, if you stand further away, you will have a very tinny sound as the treble carries much better than the bass. Closer to the speakers, the treble level will be too low. The correct tonal balance will only happen at one distance, which would mean the audience has to stand in an arc around the speakers.
IMO, you're still better off with a compression driver.
Chris
Koutrou. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but someone has to be honest with you. You'll never achieve what you want, no matter how much money and technology you throw at the problem.
You could have great fun trying, and there's nothing wrong with that, I've been down the same road.
There are too many compromises needed to make a workable PA system, one that works in a large space, at high volumes and is reliable, (people often forget about that one). It's not a controlled space like your home listening room where you always sit in the perfect chair at the perfect angle.
Chris has already pointed out the problems you'll have with driver arrangement and HF, but have you considered that many other things affect this as well? You could make a great sounding system for a known room, but it will be completely different from full to a half empty. It'll sound different from the start of the night to the end, as humidity builds up and the temperature changes.
What volume do you design a flat response for? The ear perceives sound differently at different volumes. At home you might only listen at one volume, but the levels for a live gig could change hugely, depending on the act. And that leads to protection, you will need some sort of power limiting, (which always compromises sound and dynamics), or the first time you turn it up, you'll blow half the speakers. Yes, you will, trust me, I've seen it too many times, (and had good paid work doing recones afterwards for clients that tried).
There are many other things I could talk about, but I'll leave you with a thought: The designers at large PA companies really want to build the best sounding speakers they can, and they have design budgets of hundreds of thousands of dollars, excellent test equipment and years of experience. What makes you think you can do better?
You could have great fun trying, and there's nothing wrong with that, I've been down the same road.
There are too many compromises needed to make a workable PA system, one that works in a large space, at high volumes and is reliable, (people often forget about that one). It's not a controlled space like your home listening room where you always sit in the perfect chair at the perfect angle.
Chris has already pointed out the problems you'll have with driver arrangement and HF, but have you considered that many other things affect this as well? You could make a great sounding system for a known room, but it will be completely different from full to a half empty. It'll sound different from the start of the night to the end, as humidity builds up and the temperature changes.
What volume do you design a flat response for? The ear perceives sound differently at different volumes. At home you might only listen at one volume, but the levels for a live gig could change hugely, depending on the act. And that leads to protection, you will need some sort of power limiting, (which always compromises sound and dynamics), or the first time you turn it up, you'll blow half the speakers. Yes, you will, trust me, I've seen it too many times, (and had good paid work doing recones afterwards for clients that tried).
There are many other things I could talk about, but I'll leave you with a thought: The designers at large PA companies really want to build the best sounding speakers they can, and they have design budgets of hundreds of thousands of dollars, excellent test equipment and years of experience. What makes you think you can do better?
Nice answer... I have do 7 party in my garden with very high volumes but even not 1 driver damage or blow. I am careful with my speaker limits...some PA brands make very nice speakers and my favorite is L Acoustics very clean sound, balance & powerful but the detail & clarity in high frequencies is not in same level with high quality hifi sound system... in the midrange and low frequencies the difference is not noticeable or big for direct radiator PA speakers. The reason that there is difference in sound quality in high frequencies are horns.... They can make low distortion but meke sound different even the best of them dont sound same natural as an good ATM driver.... But they are long throw thats why PA .manufactures use them... for maximum sound pressure and same time good quality....
I'm on the same page as you koutrou: as most PA speakers suck due to audio quality from the speakers but most often the placement is even worse. Have a good look a my previous post and realize that what you hear is the direct sound plus the reflections. Indoors you hear much more reflections so off axis response does matter even more.
Hifi systems with pa sound levels:
Hifi systems with pa sound levels:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Please do NOT quote the entire texts above yours when replying.
Koutrou: As you are not reacting to suggestions regarding your current setup, you are not interested in fixing your current setup?
Do you get the relation between driver size and of axis response?
And did you notice the tiny mid drivers in the hifi systems pictures compared to your current 15" 'mids'?
Do you get the relation between driver size and of axis response?
And did you notice the tiny mid drivers in the hifi systems pictures compared to your current 15" 'mids'?
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