I have updated the first post after getting back from holiday.
I have often thought about powered speakers but the extra cabling gets pretty annoying, I wouldn't be able to cope with amp failure and my tops are already too heavy. I also need the rack anyway for the DSP and would need a lot of plate amps for my subs, while at the moment I just wire them as parallel series off a big amp. Probably appropriate for smaller systems.
I quite like the look of the K2 and STA-2000D so will keep a lookout for deals, another alternative is just designing my own amplifier but it would probably cost more than a commercial offering*
*as I love high spec power devices that cost £40 each....
I have often thought about powered speakers but the extra cabling gets pretty annoying, I wouldn't be able to cope with amp failure and my tops are already too heavy. I also need the rack anyway for the DSP and would need a lot of plate amps for my subs, while at the moment I just wire them as parallel series off a big amp. Probably appropriate for smaller systems.
I quite like the look of the K2 and STA-2000D so will keep a lookout for deals, another alternative is just designing my own amplifier but it would probably cost more than a commercial offering*
*as I love high spec power devices that cost £40 each....
I'm with you on the amp failure /flexibility issue. And the desire to use tweaky DSP that can be hard to find (or painful to pay for) in a non-OEM plate amp. That's what drove my in (back) the direction of 'separates', both for my mains and monitor rig. However, my 'B' rig (the powered Danleys + JBL 618XLF powered subs) is powered, and will probably stay that way... it is just too compellingly easy to set up powered speakers, especially in tight quarters.
That said, there *are* plate amps with FIR capable DSP.
USSpeaker sells these: DSP_PowerPack Modules | RAM Audio
And I've seen various Pascal/Marani plate amps on EBay, eg:
PASCAL W/ MARANI DSP PDA281PAF 2-Channel FIR Amplifier AUTHORIZED DEALER!!! | eBay
That stuff isn't cheap, but it is out there.
The powered-speaker cable clutter concerns can be addressed pretty cleanly with the purchase or construction of "Siamese" XLR/Power cables. For my powered rig (and my old one-rack-per-side dsp/amp setup, which intentionally uses compatible cabling) I went overboard and built my own, using shielded power cable & quad shield signal cable. The bundle is stuffed inside that braided expanding wire loom stuff. Looks tidy, and is dead quiet electrically.
Physics and experience suggest that the shielded power cable appears to be overkill; btw; I've gotten similarly quiet results using off-the-shelf extension cords bundled with high quality signal cables.
That said, there *are* plate amps with FIR capable DSP.
USSpeaker sells these: DSP_PowerPack Modules | RAM Audio
And I've seen various Pascal/Marani plate amps on EBay, eg:
PASCAL W/ MARANI DSP PDA281PAF 2-Channel FIR Amplifier AUTHORIZED DEALER!!! | eBay
That stuff isn't cheap, but it is out there.
The powered-speaker cable clutter concerns can be addressed pretty cleanly with the purchase or construction of "Siamese" XLR/Power cables. For my powered rig (and my old one-rack-per-side dsp/amp setup, which intentionally uses compatible cabling) I went overboard and built my own, using shielded power cable & quad shield signal cable. The bundle is stuffed inside that braided expanding wire loom stuff. Looks tidy, and is dead quiet electrically.
Physics and experience suggest that the shielded power cable appears to be overkill; btw; I've gotten similarly quiet results using off-the-shelf extension cords bundled with high quality signal cables.
Last edited:
Look at the Crown K1 amp, this article here made me realize I have been wasting my money buying 1000 watt amplifiers. 300 is more then enough to fry any speaker.
Power Handling Vs. Efficiency
Power Handling Vs. Efficiency
Crown XLS DriveCore2 series are quiet - if the fan has come on my XLS 1502 driving JBL double 15" per bin, I have never heard it.
While Rod makes some good points, he has missed a few IMO:
- At low frequencies, efficiency is dictated by cabinet size. See Hoffman's Iron Law.
- High-efficiency drivers are usually not suited for LF reproduction, primarily because they tend to have limited Xmax. Take a look at 18Sound's range of 6" drivers for an idea - they range from midbass drivers with useful Xmax and efficiency in the low-90s, up to dedicated midrange drivers with almost zero Xmax, but up to 10dB more efficiency.
Which will have more useful LF output?
Chris
You do need multi kW amps if your driving lots of subs, I'm running 12*15" drivers, soon 16. Nothings burnt out yet
Waaaaait a minute.. 16x 15" subs and you're worried about the fan noise in your DSP box? Based on that, I'd been envisioning a 12x16 apartment-sized listening room. Are you sure you don't have the space to relocate your amp racks to somewhere where the noise doesn't matter?
Regardless, I like your style
And btw/OT... the used Symetrix Jupiter 8 I'd mentioned showed up the other day, and unlike the Radius (and your 8x8?), it has no fan. Might be the upside to it using an external PSU.
Here are some pics,
subs are in the four corners of the room for even bass. Two have 4 drivers and two have 2 drivers, I run each pair off a separate amp channel on the inuke. Tops are three ways with a plastic 90x40 horn modified to be a multiple entry horn. This allows me to cross to the mid-bass at 500 Hz keeping everything point source.
DSP is Symetrix 8x8 modified to have no fan and a Cobranet expansion.
Amps are Apart pa 2120 and inuke 6000. The amp at the bottom is just a spare and not normally used. The racks are internally wired so I can setup quickly.
I can't light the bottom signal light on the inuke without the house sounding like its falling apart so I'm planning on moving.
subs are in the four corners of the room for even bass. Two have 4 drivers and two have 2 drivers, I run each pair off a separate amp channel on the inuke. Tops are three ways with a plastic 90x40 horn modified to be a multiple entry horn. This allows me to cross to the mid-bass at 500 Hz keeping everything point source.
DSP is Symetrix 8x8 modified to have no fan and a Cobranet expansion.
Amps are Apart pa 2120 and inuke 6000. The amp at the bottom is just a spare and not normally used. The racks are internally wired so I can setup quickly.
I can't light the bottom signal light on the inuke without the house sounding like its falling apart so I'm planning on moving.
Attachments
Sounds like you have your priorities in order!
I'm fortunate enough to have a little bit of space between my (detached, decently large, somewhat soundproofed) listening space and my neighbors. I did the soundproofing measures (double 5/8" sheetrock on floating 'z' channel) primarily to get the noise floor down while recording, but it comes in handy when I'm running rehearsals or 'vigorous' listening sessions. It is quite literally the only place I've ever lived as an adult where I've never been visited by the police fore a noise complaint. Indoors, at least
Unfortunately it is a wood-framed building, so at a certain point it also starts to sound like its falling apart. The floating sheetrock also seems to act like a giant bass trap. I wasn't thinking far enough ahead when I built the building.
The gentleman who built this house, on the other hand, *did* think far enough ahead... that's me, inside one of his speakers ;0)
Attachments
Last edited:
I've used Behringer Inukes...
for several years (in light duty home system) and only had one unit (a NU6000) fail out of 4. The defect would have been warranty except due to me having modded the unit. Unless by "noise" you mean the annoying stock fan on the iNuke units (easily replaced), I have not had any noise issues (running XLR inputs tho) unless you count the groans of disapproval here upon mention of the manufacturer
for several years (in light duty home system) and only had one unit (a NU6000) fail out of 4. The defect would have been warranty except due to me having modded the unit. Unless by "noise" you mean the annoying stock fan on the iNuke units (easily replaced), I have not had any noise issues (running XLR inputs tho) unless you count the groans of disapproval here upon mention of the manufacturer
And there are 5 of them.=
To get this very vaguely OT, the door that can be seen on the right (the one with 2x 24" woofers in it) is one of two similarly-equipped doors leading into the amp room. Fairly classic IB situation... no concerns whatsoever about amplifier fan noise!
I'm waiting to see if anyone out there is old enough to recognize this system. I was 13 when it appeared on the cover of Audio, it did a lot to create my obsession with big sound systems. To somewhat randomly have a chance to climb into the picture 43 years later was pretty trippy.
To get this very vaguely OT, the door that can be seen on the right (the one with 2x 24" woofers in it) is one of two similarly-equipped doors leading into the amp room. Fairly classic IB situation... no concerns whatsoever about amplifier fan noise!
I'm waiting to see if anyone out there is old enough to recognize this system. I was 13 when it appeared on the cover of Audio, it did a lot to create my obsession with big sound systems. To somewhat randomly have a chance to climb into the picture 43 years later was pretty trippy.
Sorry about the derailment, btw. I've been cooped up in my office too long.
Pretty darned good, especially considering its vintage (some stuff, like the amps & processing, have been updated, but the driver array is pretty much original).
The thing I would have thought would be a problem (the crazy tweeter array) sounded great. The midrange horns are fed by a manifolded pair of 2" throat (JBL??) Alnico CDs that looked a lot like like the Gauss CDs I had back in the 80's. Dick's system's midranges occasionally exhibited a honk that I found to be a bit unfortunate, depending on the program material.
I just thought of a bad pun: His system puts the 'Home' in 'HOM's.
But overall it was tremendously satisfying to listen to. The dynamic range was pretty infinite, which was fun. 4x24" IB woofers mostly keep up with everything else, unless you're going bonkers playing organ music, which we were.
What trumped the relatively minor flaws was that A) The room is amazing, aesthetically (grooooovy, baby!) and acoustically, and B) The program material was great.
Dick used to have pretty thorough access to performances at Jordan Hall, the Great Organ in Methuen MA, etc, and from what I can tell from looking at his catalog of recordings, just about anyone that he asked to come to play in his own room must have said yes. So a lot of what he plays back on that system for visitors is stuff that he recorded himself way back when, on microphones he built, amplified by preamps he designed (etc, etc), and mixed down and mastered specifically for that system, on that system. Overall, the effect was pretty astounding. I'd say that evening is tied for first place for the most fun I've ever had listening to someone else's playback system.
I did come away feeling a tad unworthy, though; for soup-to-nuts DIY, he's about as real as they come.
Pretty darned good, especially considering its vintage (some stuff, like the amps & processing, have been updated, but the driver array is pretty much original).
The thing I would have thought would be a problem (the crazy tweeter array) sounded great. The midrange horns are fed by a manifolded pair of 2" throat (JBL??) Alnico CDs that looked a lot like like the Gauss CDs I had back in the 80's. Dick's system's midranges occasionally exhibited a honk that I found to be a bit unfortunate, depending on the program material.
I just thought of a bad pun: His system puts the 'Home' in 'HOM's.
But overall it was tremendously satisfying to listen to. The dynamic range was pretty infinite, which was fun. 4x24" IB woofers mostly keep up with everything else, unless you're going bonkers playing organ music, which we were.
What trumped the relatively minor flaws was that A) The room is amazing, aesthetically (grooooovy, baby!) and acoustically, and B) The program material was great.
Dick used to have pretty thorough access to performances at Jordan Hall, the Great Organ in Methuen MA, etc, and from what I can tell from looking at his catalog of recordings, just about anyone that he asked to come to play in his own room must have said yes. So a lot of what he plays back on that system for visitors is stuff that he recorded himself way back when, on microphones he built, amplified by preamps he designed (etc, etc), and mixed down and mastered specifically for that system, on that system. Overall, the effect was pretty astounding. I'd say that evening is tied for first place for the most fun I've ever had listening to someone else's playback system.
I did come away feeling a tad unworthy, though; for soup-to-nuts DIY, he's about as real as they come.
I am pretty sure Rod is referring to folded horn designs.
Not many is use nowadays but they are way louder with fewer watts but they are also HUGE. The same laws of thermodynamics apply.
my EV 18" subs (SP180 models) are 98DB at 1 watt 50-200hz -10db at 30 hz
Eminence Delta 15's are 100 db at 1 watt
Eminence Omega Pro 97db at 1 watt 4.8 Xmax 40-800hz
I just ended up with a Yamaha P3500. I won the battle of “The speakers were here before you were”, but not the battle of the noisy fan in a 80 pound 4U amp turned on it’s side sitting beside the “entertainment center”. Absolutely no comparison between the old amp and the yammie when driven 6 to 12 dB into clip. The beast still sounds fine but the poor yammie sounds on the edge of death - the price you pay with a lighter weight amp. But we never listen that loud in the house anymore. The fan in the Yamaha almost never comes on, and excellent sound quality when used “properly”.